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Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

openwireless.org

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Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#11

Post by pfortuny »

belorn wrote: post #8

Can we all just calm down and take a sensible look at the risk. Is for example, the risk of getting hit by a meteor, bigger than say getting legal attention for having an open wifi? Security researcher like Bruce Schneier keeps an open wifi, and he argues this exact point. ( https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/my_open_wirel... ) There are also plenty of solutions if one want to eliminate this "risk". Hook…

I am pretty calmed down, the fact is... There are quite a number of illegal activities going on in the world using the Internet. As much as you joke, the fact is I use my wifi all day long and hooking it to tor/vpn would:

1) slow it down

2) cost me money if I do not want 1) to happen

You know, I do not travel to volcanoes, but I do use the Internet. And being hit by a meteor is something over which I have no control... My wifi is completely mine to tinker with.

On the other hand: and I am not into risking SO MUCH (just the fact of receiving a letter is too much for me, sorry my values are not equal to yours) for so little benefit, sorry.

It is a risk without quotes, it is probably not a "danger" from your point of view (just to be precise): risk is anything with a potential damaging outcome... Yes, any activity is a risk. Just ask any insurance company out there.

And frankly I could not care less about Schneier's open wifi and his arguments in this case.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#12

Post by pfortuny »

Clarifying: illegal in Spain.

Copied from the 'general conditions' of an ADSL contract in Spain (Telefónica):

"Queda expresamente prohibida la [...] compartición de recursos fuera del domicilio"

(The sharing of resources out of the domicile is expressively forbidden).

The link is here: http://www.movistar.es/rpmm/estaticos/residencial/fijo/banda... Won't do this in Spain.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#13

Post by retube »

fredley wrote: post #5

As the owner of my broadband line in the UK, I am legally responsible for everything downloaded with my connection. As long as this is still the case, this will never happen. Also, I have to pay if I go over my bandwidth limit. I appreciate there are plans with no limit, but this is a limiting factor for almost everybody.

Your first statement is afaik not correct. 1) It would create a serious issue for the BT Openzone network which turns all BT "homehubs" (a glorified wireless router) into open access points for any other BT subscriber and 2) there have been a number of court cases around downloading of pirated content which have hinged on whether or not the subscriber was responsible.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#15

Post by trout »

I don't like how the pitch and the implementation instructions diverge. The pitch uses technology that read 'pop our Considerable Use policy when they connect', 'firewall users so they can't see each other', 'use a separate network so yours doesn't get slower'.

There's an assumption that if you name your SSID openwireless.org that it somehow ties them to the Considerable Use guidelines. Which means that people searching for free wifi will find the SSID, after they connect will go to the website, and then find the little yellow bar and click on it, scroll down, and read a decent sized paragraph that politely asks them not to stream HD movies.

Yet on the page there is only 1 with a setting for QoS (which won't prevent the types of problems you want it to), and one with 'firewalling users' (which doesn't shield users from each other, only prevents them from routing into your subnets). Not to say that it's their fault - most routers don't have the features available to actually segment and properly prioritize different sets of users.

I read the FAQ and thought they figured out how to solve these difficult problems on simple platforms, only to be disappointed with the tutorials that simply opened networks up.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#16

Post by belorn »

pfortuny wrote: post #11
belorn wrote: post #8

Can we all just calm down and take a sensible look at the risk. Is for example, the risk of getting hit by a meteor, bigger than say getting legal attention for having an open wifi? Security researcher like Bruce Schneier keeps an open wifi, and he argues this exact point. ( https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/my_open_wirel... ) There are also plenty of solutions if one want to eliminate this "risk". Hook…

I am pretty calmed down, the fact is... There are quite a number of illegal activities going on in the world using the Internet. As much as you joke, the fact is I use my wifi all day long and hooking it to tor/vpn would: 1) slow it down 2) cost me money if I do not want 1) to happen You know, I do not travel to volcanoes, but I do use the Internet. And being hit by a meteor is something over which I have no control.…

I never meant you should use tor/vpn on your own traffic, just the open wifi traffic. Funnel all trafic you deem risky (ie, from the unknown public) to tor, and let your own traffic use the non-tor route.

Technically, you can do this several ways. You can base it on the source MAC, ipsec authentication, or just have two separate networks (one close, one open).

As for the risk. Yes, any activity is a risk. Walking down the street, breathing air, or just talking to someone will invokes a large number of them. Thus, if we dont want to be incapacitated by our own fears, we must evaluate them. Meteor insurance is a joke because of this. While it is a "risk" in the strict sense, its not a risk worth considering or giving any action to.

If the risk of open wifi is the same or even less than meteor strikes, why does it deserve any though or considerations? Why is this fear different from people who refuse to leave their home, or refuse to be around people if they dont wear face masks and gloves?

Ie, are there a rational reason to avoid open-wifi, or is it just irrational fear. Of course, anyone is allowed to not do something they feel afraid of. But I also feel allowed to point out the folly of irrational fears of risks with less than meteor strike probability.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#17

Post by alexkus »

retube wrote: post #13
fredley wrote: post #5

As the owner of my broadband line in the UK, I am legally responsible for everything downloaded with my connection. As long as this is still the case, this will never happen. Also, I have to pay if I go over my bandwidth limit. I appreciate there are plans with no limit, but this is a limiting factor for almost everybody.

Your first statement is afaik not correct. 1) It would create a serious issue for the BT Openzone network which turns all BT "homehubs" (a glorified wireless router) into open access points for any other BT subscriber and 2) there have been a number of court cases around downloading of pirated content which have hinged on whether or not the subscriber was responsible.

1) is not a problem on BT Openzone/FON as the subscriber and open networks are kept separate:-

quick google

http://community.bt.com/t5/BB-Out-About/Liability-under-BT-F...

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#18

Post by prof_hobart »

retube wrote: post #13
fredley wrote: post #5

As the owner of my broadband line in the UK, I am legally responsible for everything downloaded with my connection. As long as this is still the case, this will never happen. Also, I have to pay if I go over my bandwidth limit. I appreciate there are plans with no limit, but this is a limiting factor for almost everybody.

Your first statement is afaik not correct. 1) It would create a serious issue for the BT Openzone network which turns all BT "homehubs" (a glorified wireless router) into open access points for any other BT subscriber and 2) there have been a number of court cases around downloading of pirated content which have hinged on whether or not the subscriber was responsible.

Regardless of what the theory of the law may seem to indicate, then assuming that The Cloud's MD isn't lying, it looks like the courts may sometimes disagree with you.

"A pub owner has been fined £8,000 because someone unlawfully downloaded copyrighted material over their open Wi-Fi hotspot, according to the managing director of hotspot provider The Cloud."(http://www.zdnet.com/-3039909136/).

Personally, while there's this kind of case being brought, I'd rather not take the risk.

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#19

Post by pfortuny »

belorn wrote: post #16
pfortuny wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty calmed down, the fact is... There are quite a number of illegal activities going on in the world using the Internet. As much as you joke, the fact is I use my wifi all day long and hooking it to tor/vpn would: 1) slow it down 2) cost me money if I do not want 1) to happen You know, I do not travel to volcanoes, but I do use the Internet. And being hit by a meteor is something over which I have no control.…

I never meant you should use tor/vpn on your own traffic, just the open wifi traffic. Funnel all trafic you deem risky (ie, from the unknown public) to tor, and let your own traffic use the non-tor route. Technically, you can do this several ways. You can base it on the source MAC, ipsec authentication, or just have two separate networks (one close, one open). As for the risk. Yes, any activity is a risk. Walking dow…

risk=dangerValue x probabilty. I am entitled to value legal liability as higher than my own life, am I not?

Re: Imagine a world where dozens of open networks are available at your fingertips

#20

Post by Someone »

Providers in the Netherlans do this, with the twist that it is only available to the subset of their customers that open their network to others: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/wps/portal/newsreleases/detail...

That link describes a test, but AFAIK, the test was succesful, and they will go full ahead (rumor has it that they will want to buy spectrum in an auction going on right now to fill gaps in that network)

I think a major ifference is that they provide hardware that separates the public network from your private one.

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