Live data from Hacker News

Keep Your Identity Small

paulgraham.com

121–130 of 267 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#121
I think politics and religion are very different than most other disagreements because they extend beyond that one person. When a person believes in fascisim or racism, they begin advocating policies to force their believes on others. Religion gets tossed in there because a long time ago morality got tied to religion.

So in my opinion, people get into "religious wars" because the beliefs of other affect them.

Hell, when people get all worked up about a language there are benefits to convincing people to use their language -- better tool support, better libraries etc; and if they are on the losing side of a language they will have to learn another one.

In the end these types of debates are all about control, either direct or indirect. Direct -- Force, rule of law, etc ... Indirect -- public opinion, social mores, # of followers.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#122
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhist practitioners are human too, of course, but a central practice in Buddhism is to dissolve and refute concrete belief in a persistent self and consciousness.

Try breaking up an inner city gang fight by telling them to let their concrete beliefs dissolve in persistent self and consciousness. My point is that this zen buddhism stuff is mainly the luxury of the elite few. Others have to grapple with the practicalities of daily survival, group membership, and hope for the future. Out of such things come the hard forged religious and political systems.

No one lives in a persistent fight. But for those that do experience conflict, I don't see how those who needn't sustain their identity in the face of adversity fare much worse than others.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#123
I've found that the best way to do this is to make "values the truth above everything else" be the core of your identity.

Then you can let yourself peripherally identify with other things, and, when they're challenged, your core will step in and let you deal with the challenge rationally.

But doing that is even harder than it might sound. I've been explicitly working on it for a couple years now, and although I've made progress -- I think I care about getting the truth more than I care about avoiding embarrassment now, for example -- I'd still probably religiously defend myself or my loved ones if either were verbally attacked rather than try to figure out what truth the accusation contained.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#124
Preface: one thing I like about PG's essays is that even though I often strongly disagree with his position, they really make me think, and force me to clarify my own position in my mind.

The essay said, "people can never have a fruitful argument about something that's part of their identity".

Hmmm. I don't think that's correct at all. For example, I have a great marriage, and my wife's a big part of my identity, but we've had many fruitful discussions about marriage and related issues. Being a Christian is also a big part of who I am, but that doesn't stop me having fruitful discussions about it (admittedly usually not online). If it's with an atheist or agnostic, sometimes I'm sharpened, and sometimes they're challenged.

There's a big difference between being blinkered, and having strong but clearly-argued positions that weave in and out of your identity.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#125

It might not just be identifying with something. It doesn't seem that it's completely identify based, at least to me. I drive a Jeep -- love old Jeeps. It's part of who I am. But if somebody started ragging on Jeeps in a forum I was in I don't think it'd matter. I wouldn't feel threatened. I like Jeeps. So what. I also like puppies. Some subjects make people feel threatened because to talk about them, in any fashion,…

I think it is more than just having one's sanity questioned. Speaking for myself, I react this way not because I don't value rationality over what feels good, but its that it seems there is knowledge behind my belief and I'm being forced to reject it because I am not articulate enough to defend it. This can be a major problem if the cultural context of the debate does not contain the right words and concepts to explain what I believe. Consequently, since debates go to the most succinct and clear, I must lose, but not due to necessarily having a more irrational belief. Then, if I persist in my belief, I become ostracized as an irrational person.

Articles like this merely fuel the feeling of impotence in the culturally disadvantaged like myself, leading to a more irrational defense of their (my) beliefs, and a vicious cycle follows. This is the "core going critical" that pg mentions. The ultimate result will be a more "rational" person, but they are more "rational" because they have been lobotimized.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#127
post #73

I disagree that the more labels someone has the dumber they make you. And I strongly disagree in that. I know people that believe in almost nothing. Not in a religion, not a programming language. Sure there won't ever be a religious argument. But also probably no discussion at all because there is nothing to talk about with them. I have a lot of believes and disbelieves but I still consider myself able to talk about…

Yes, and pg also doesn't observe that a person's identity tends to be strongly tied to things that provide for their welfare. For the common person, religion and politics do this. For the elite, not so much. But, say if they are programmers, they can have a strong identity tie to their editor (vi vs emacs) or language, since they depend on these things to prosper in life.

This is not merely an unthinking thing on their part. Considering other points of view and trying new things can take up a person's time. Claiming that the basis of their welfare is incorrect implies it is taking away from their welfare and they should try something else. If a person reacts "irrationally" on such an issue this may be because they do not judge their resources sufficient to change course. I think "irrationality" should be addressed on these grounds instead of merely labelling a person's opinion as irrational/bad, along with the social estrangement this entails.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#128
Regarding religion: there is no other thing which is able to change you so profoundly (in good ways or in bad ways) like religion:

Neither your wife, nor your children, really nothing else is able to touch/change you so deeply. There are many examples of this: many many humans which offered/donated/gave whole of their life for religious reasons.

This could be read as a hint that faith/religion is rooted so deeply that it seems not reasonable that it is only an invention of humans themselves.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#129

I've found that the best way to do this is to make "values the truth above everything else" be the core of your identity. Then you can let yourself peripherally identify with other things, and, when they're challenged, your core will step in and let you deal with the challenge rationally. But doing that is even harder than it might sound. I've been explicitly working on it for a couple years now, and although I've ma…

Being honest to yourself is much harder than it seems. Have you read Ghandi's "Experiments with Truth" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_My_Experiments_wit... ?

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#130
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that it is impolite to discuss politics and religion is a staple bit of folk wisdom dispensed by parents, grandparents, various other elders, and barkeeps the world over. ...but it's not a universal piece of folk wisdom. In fact it's the significant minority When you consider 68% of the world of the world is composed under the belief structures of the 3 primary religions (christianity, islam, hinduism) and…

My grandfather gave me that advice, and he's a member of the clergy. There are varying levels of social sophistication amongst religious people. In general those born into some sort of longstanding cultural religion tend to not bring it up in polite conversation. It's the newly converted noobs, or perhaps a crazy aunt, who ruin the dinner party.

Your crazy aunts don't necessarily need to be religious to ruin dinner parties.

Many of my family Christmas' have been ruined by drunken dancing old women :)

Post reply on HN