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Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

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Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#31
post #28
post #3

Nice. It can work with something like https://github.com/github/spec-kit ?

My employer is trying to convince us to embrace spec-kit. But we are a Clojure shop: we iterate fast and produce results. We don't sit around and write specs and then hope working code plops out.

With AI tools, spec-driven development is the lowest latency option.

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#32
I've been doing something less formal. I stumbled upon Riaan Zoetmulder's free course on deep learning and medical image analysis [1] and found his article on spec-driven development [2]. He adapts the V-Model by specifying three things upfront: requirements, system design and architecture. The rest gets generated. He mentioned a study where they show that LLM assistance slowed down experienced open source devs on large codebases. The model doesn't know the implicit context. And to me that's the thing! An LLM should have an index of some sort.

So I vibe coded my own static analysis program where I just track my own function calls. It outputs a call graph of all my self-defined functions and shows the name (and Python type hints) of what it is calling (excluding standard library function, also only self-defined stuff). Running that program and sending the diff from time to time seems to have helped a lot already.

[1] https://www.riaanzoetmulder.com/courses/deep-learning-medica...

[2] https://www.riaanzoetmulder.com/articles/ai-assisted-program...

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#34
post #17

This is AI slop not worth my time. What would be interesting is if the author shared her practical experience in implementing it. Let's see some of those specs. What tricky bugs did it catch? The author's latest repo hasn't even been passing CI, so what does that say? https://github.com/dollspace-gay/Tesseract-Vault/commits/mai...

The runners are failing because it moved them from github hosted to self hosted and its requiring fixes, but you would know that if you actually paid attention to the commits and werent just looking for cheap dunks. Have a good one.

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#35
Short take: replace TDD with BDD, and might add DDD as a spice. Otherwise this is a fairly good article.

Why not TDD? Since a lot of developers use LLMs to create tests today, plus a lot of the training data contains information on how to do this. Making it something that it either can figure out to do by itself or that it will cheat. Both equally bad.

A somewhat controversial take is that you should simply avoid writing tests which the LLM can produce by itself, similar to how we in the last week removed the agents.md file.

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most of the code gets discarded." If you don't mind sharing, what's your signal-to-token ratio?

How do you propose we measure signal? Lines of code is renowned for being a very bad measure of anything, and I really can't come up with anything better.

The OP said that they kept what they liked and discarded the rest. I think that's a reasonable definition for signal; so, the signal-to-token ratio would be a simple ratio of (tokens committed)/(tokens purchased). You could argue that any tokens spent exploring options or refining things could be signal and I would agree, but that's harder to measure after the fact. We could give them a flat 10x multiplier to capture this part if you want.

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#38
post #17

This is AI slop not worth my time. What would be interesting is if the author shared her practical experience in implementing it. Let's see some of those specs. What tricky bugs did it catch? The author's latest repo hasn't even been passing CI, so what does that say? https://github.com/dollspace-gay/Tesseract-Vault/commits/mai...

The runners are failing because it moved them from github hosted to self hosted and its requiring fixes, but you would know that if you actually paid attention to the commits and werent just looking for cheap dunks. Have a good one.

I looked at the past few pages of your repo's history and half the time it is broken. Is this continued failure despite using a verified spec, or did you not use one? If not which repo should we look at instead? I am sorry but I see nothing from you to engage here.

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#39
In a perfect world I can see this happening. But with AI increasing or output I think the real bottleneck is work sponsors, business logic and requirements discovery/translating/sign off.

I am seeing more teams and features being rolled faster than before but then discovering that the sponsors (those requesting features and change) either don’t invest the time up front or with timely feedback loops and work stalls or has to be redone as business does not see the results until it’s either live or about to go live.

This has always been the case but I think AI tooling has moved the bottleneck

Re: Verified Spec-Driven Development (VSDD)

#40
post #6

Everything in this post stems from the assumption that you already know what you're doing, which is probably true for things you've built before. But I hope we can agree that you can't spec out something you have no clue how to build, let alone write the tests before you've even explored the boundaries of the problem space. That's completely unreasonable. My second point is that this approach is fundamentally wrong f…

There’s a real tension here.

If you are vibe-coding, this approach is definitely going to kill you buzz and lose all the rapid iteration benefits.

But if you are working in an existing large system, vibe coding is hard to bring into the core. So I think something more formal like OP is needed to reap major benefits from AI.

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