Live data from Hacker News

Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

nytimes.com

91–100 of 155 posts

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#91
post #11

If we're going to have to rely on self-regulation for this, we're already doomed.

There is only self regulation, ultimately, at the top. I think it's still progress to see these groups specifically call out their moral hesitations, even if it doesn't go anywhere - it gives people ground to realize that others share their concerns. All movements, all progress starts from people putting their stance out there and getting a conversation going around the topic; that builds mindshare and eventually a d…

[deleted]

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#92
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not answering the question.. and HN ain't US only. You can say the same for any other country... What if Japan employee refuse, but American want that anyway? What if China employee refuse, but Russia employee want that anyway? The implication are still the same -- social, culture, jurisdiction, national interest, company interest don't share the same boundary and don't align on their priorities.

I don’t think they’re refusing all military involvement. Autonomous-decision making is the problematic part.

[deleted]

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#93

I understand the vision, but how does this work on a global scale. e.g. American employees refuse to build this, but China's don't. Edit: I originally ended with "What would have happened if Germany had a nuclear bomb and America didn't?", but I think it distracted from the point I was trying to make so moving this to an edit. I'm not trying to ask "is the US the bad guy". I'm trying to ask how to balance personal an…

That’s exactly why I think the principled position is naive in a tragedy of the commons situation we’re in - it isn’t a sci fi story with a happy ending, it’s the Manhattan project and 70+ years ago nazi and japanese data centers doing foundational model training would’ve been bombed to smithereens at any cost.

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#95
post #84
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to give a shout out here to an episode of the excellent podcast Hardcore History , specifically Episode 59: The Destroyer of Worlds [1]. The development of the atomic bomb created a debate in American policy circles about how the US should react. Within a few years, the same debate occurred over developing thermonuclear weapons. The same question kept coming up: what if the enemy has these weapons and we do…

You seem to be laboring under the naive belief that mainland China is a rational actor which will refrain from attacking Taiwan over fear of heavy losses and possible defeat. You might have been correct at some point, but that situation no longer obtains. Xi Jinping has successfully purged all potential rivals and personally taken over centralized control of all important decisions. We have no visibility into his thi…

So I follow a number of China scholars and experts and I've yet to see any consensus about what these military purges actually mean.

It could be about corruption. You see this in the Russian military where paid-for tanks didn't exist because the generals had pocketed the money. It could be to have an expansionist policy. It could well be to not have an expansionist policy. The point is that nobody really knows yet.

But the string I really wanted to pull at was this idea that China isn't a "rational actor". It's lazy and really a thought-terminating cliche. It's certainly no basis for analysis or policy-making. It's kind of the final boss of justification. "Putin/Saddam/Xi/Castro/Maduro is crazy". That really just means you don't understand what's going on or want to ignore the facts.

We now have 50+ years (since really the end of the Cultural Revolution) of China acting in a very rational, very intentional and very long-term way. Xi's own history here is pretty interesting. He went from privileged child (his father was one of Mao's lieutenants) to being banished to working his way up through the party's ranks over decades.

It's a mistake (IMHO) to view Xi as a singular actor, let alone as a irrational autocrat. While the PRC and the CCP might be relatively new the systems and political structures can probably be traced back thousands of years. I'm thinking particularly of the bureaucratic reforms of the Qin Dynasty some ~2300 years ago.

What cannot be ignored is that a billion Chinese have seen a massive improvement in their living conditions during their lifetimes. Almost all of the people pulled out of extreme poverty in the 20th century were because of China (~800M). So although China is authoritarian, the government is extremely popular because of that increase in living conditions. It's something that we in the West have a hard time fathoming because our living conditions have been in decline since at least the 1970s.

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#96
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military has deployed fully autonomous weapons systems since 1979. If you're worried about that then you're a little late.

It seems weird to equivocate the capabilities of "ai" in 1979 to what we have now; clearly it is on a different level.

[dead]

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#98
post #90

I understand the vision, but how does this work on a global scale. e.g. American employees refuse to build this, but China's don't. Edit: I originally ended with "What would have happened if Germany had a nuclear bomb and America didn't?", but I think it distracted from the point I was trying to make so moving this to an edit. I'm not trying to ask "is the US the bad guy". I'm trying to ask how to balance personal an…

Do the same thing we did with the nuclear arms race: Treaties to limit and control it. Obviously, we would have had more political leverage if our leaders had started working on a treaty before they crossed enough moral red lines to start a tech revolt, but we did not elect the sort of leaders that would do that.

treaties worked because both sides had large quantity of bombs. In this case, certain people do not want US to have AI bomb, while China and others will have it.

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#99
post #60
post #9

As much as I applaud the intention, the genie has been out of the bottle on this one for many years already.

There's always this comment, saying that its useless to possibly govern or resist advancement or development or use of weapons capable of indiscriminate killing. If the world actually worked like they believe it does, if restraint were just not possible, the world would have been destroyed at least 3 documented times over. Don't listen to them.

United States 1945

Soviet Union 1949

United Kingdom 1952

France 1960

China 1964

Israel 1966

India 1974

South Africa 1979

Pakistan 1998

North Korea 2006

also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

also, see what Ukraine and Iran got for their "restraint".

Re: Google workers seek 'red lines' on military A.I., echoing Anthropic

#100
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every change starts with a few people, and then it grows

> every change starts with a few people, and then it grows your opinion is defense contracts are bad my opinion is defense contracts are good who is correct? probably me since 99.9% of Googlers won’t leave over this

[flagged]
Post reply on HN