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Keep Your Identity Small

paulgraham.com

41–50 of 267 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#41

Its posts like this and Paul's "How to Disagree" that remind me of an idea that I keep coming back to again and again. I've often wondered what would be possible in terms of designing a website that aims to moderate debate in a way that leads to new ideas and conclusions and attempts to negate as many of these types of effects as possible. Some formal system, that the users would have no choice but to follow, that be…

Sounds like Wikipedia. :)

Well yes, except that wikipedia doesn't lead to new and interesting conclusions as far as I'm aware. It does a good job of converging on good truthiness for a lot of things but avoids the harder stuff for which these types of problems make impossible to deal with.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#42
I think the problem isn't necessarily identity itself so much as when people react to criticism of things they identify with as if they were physical attacks on territory. Something in the animal brain feels threatened, and at that point the conversation turns into a confrontation.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#43
post #35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Family is also a common subject of small talk ("How is your wife doing?"), which is identity-plus-plus for most people, and the mating habits of snails are topics most people weakly identify with but not commonly used for small talk, so I'm guessing that relationship is a little less persuasive than it seems to be at first brush.

We avoid confrontation on identity-plus-plus topics. Try starting a conversation with, "So your wife's kinda a bitch, eh?"

Right, but the thesis is that it is unsafe to even mention identity because it invites catastrophic conversational degradation. The observed ability to talk about family without someone saying uncharitable things about your wife cuts against the thesis.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#44
I can't tell if this advice is intended for technical matters or a general sense. In real life, a person is going to have a lot of real identities (that can be actively ignored by that person, but not so easily dispensed with.) The same person might be a father, an accountant, a divorcee, an alcoholic, a cancer-survivor, a member of an ethnic group, a 45-year-old, etc, etc, and all of these will inevitably effect that person's mental state and behavior.

A relative of mine voted for BHO because she thought he would be "good for teachers". Lots of people think this way. A friend of mine loved a previous governor because he was "good for divorced fathers". Public policy is a huge subject, but people will throw away every consideration for a specific connection. People who don't play this game (or play it badly [1]) become the victims, rather than the benefactors, of a massive bureaucracy.

The advice is, in fact, really bad advice (if intended generally). It amounts to: Don't stick up for yourself.

[1] The two examples I mentioned were playing it very badly, for instance.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#45
post #11

A technical note about his note [1]. pg says, When that happens, it tends to happen fast, like a core going critical , but he probably means "like a core going super critical", which is when a chain reaction goes on at an increasing rate (i.e. what you need for a nuclear explosion). Critical is an equilibrium (i.e the self-sustaining condition, as used for power generation). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass

More important than technical accuracy, I knew what he meant.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#46
I think that the point of the article is not to "Keep Your Identity Small", but to not be a jerk about it. "Which topics engage people's identity depends on the people, not the topic." People's actions are not the result of their beliefs, but themselves. The topic of conflict, religion (one of your examples), is only the medium. To rephrase, people decide when to fight, the people's beliefs are only a push. With enough discipline, a hardcore religious person can avoid a religious war.

> Most people reading this will already be fairly tolerant. But there is a step beyond thinking of yourself as x but tolerating y: not even to consider yourself an x. The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you.

From what I can tell, Mr. Graham, you make the assumption that identity ('labels') itself is bad and should be minimized. I disagree. Identity, whatever the kind, serves the purpose of providing a person a sense of self. In other words, identity helps create a sense of belonging and protection. Forming an identity is like entering a family.

* Whether that family is good or not is subjective.

Mr. Graham, using your religion metaphor, a religion does provide many useful outcomes. After the Civil War and into Reconstruction, there was massive economic turmoil. There was a large debt to be paid, the sharecropping 'trap', the Financial Crisis of 1837. During that time, a lot of churches were formed. Essentially, the purpose of those churches is to provide emotional relief from the horrid state of the Union. These churches were a coping mechanism for the people. Generally, they worked. People formed a religious identity with the people they were with. Religion provided comfort. Identity is not always bad.

As a political example, in 1860, a party known as the Populist Party was formed. It was composed of farmers and the Grange. These people formed this 'Populist Party' identity because they all faced common problems: long hours, a cycle of debt, and control by monopolies. In a short span of time, the spread their identity and 4 million people joined the movement. They promoted the idea of a 8 hour work week, direct federal loans, and graduated tax rates. Many of these ideas are implemented today. Political identity provided people a voice. Their identity is beneficial to many people today.

* This came from my U.S. History notes from class.

Mr. Graham, I agree with you that social identity causes many problems, but it also provides many benefits. Please do not dismiss identity as completely harmful.

I am sorry if I offended anyone. Downvote me if you wish.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#47
This essay reminds me of this bollywood song:

  Bulla Ki Jaana

  Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
  Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
  Not the pure amongst the impure
  Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh

  Bulleh! to me, I am not known
  ...
  Secrets of religion, I have not known
  From Adam and Eve, I am not born
  I am not the name I assume
  Not in stillness, nor on the move

  Bulleh! to me, I am not known
Full lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/r/rabbi_shergill/bulla_ki_j...

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxZy32Fv_0

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#48
To be means to be something - ie have and identity. Your identity depends upon what you are and what you make of yourself. If you seek your identity from others, then conflicting discussions of religion and politics can be seen as an assault on your identity.

If you are self defined, you prefer that others see you as you are. However, if they don't, its their loss not yours. You are still what you are.

If you are other defined, you have no identity of your own. You have taken it piecemeal from those around you. Your identity has been diminished to a singularity that can be attacked by a single conflicting opinion. What you are becomes deeply threatened.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#49
post #19
post #5

I think we can also observe that the topics people weakly identify with are common topics for small talk e.g. weather, movies, pets etc.

Family is also a common subject of small talk ("How is your wife doing?"), which is identity-plus-plus for most people, and the mating habits of snails are topics most people weakly identify with but not commonly used for small talk, so I'm guessing that relationship is a little less persuasive than it seems to be at first brush.

The real issue is whether the identities conflict. It doesn't hurt my marriage to know that your marriage is great. Meanwhile, knowing someone is a proud follower of the One True Way threatens your identity as a member of the One True-Er Way.

Though if you both happen to be members of the same True Way, starting a conversation about religion and politics can be incredibly beneficial. I know seeing a bunch of Ayn Rand books on a friend's shelf boosted our relationship immensely.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#50
post #43
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We avoid confrontation on identity-plus-plus topics. Try starting a conversation with, "So your wife's kinda a bitch, eh?"

Right, but the thesis is that it is unsafe to even mention identity because it invites catastrophic conversational degradation. The observed ability to talk about family without someone saying uncharitable things about your wife cuts against the thesis.

Both participants need to identify strongly. If two guys strongly identify over the same woman there will be trouble with any talk about her. People fight over sporting teams, but you can ask a fan about the season without conflict if you don't identify with the sport.
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