North Carolina teacher's resignation letter • Hacker News Board

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#241

Post by chii » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 11:36 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #235

intended wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

There is a reason why rote learning to some extent works especially in India. There is so much competition you are likely to inevitably work very hard. So much effort that you will ultimately get it even if didn't want to. I know this is brute force way of getting things done. But it is still far better than getting nothing done.

> I know this is brute force way of getting things done.

now, theres something to be aware of - "getting _things_ done" in this context means getting a high score in a standarized test, not getting a job.

Having such a score doesn't necessarily mean you are able. Especially in a creative field that requires genuine interest and passion. This sort of training works for training operators of machinery and/or manufacturing workers that require special knowledge, but for creative fields such as programming (and not the CRUD type!) i think having such brute force method of learning is in fact a barrier.

I hear in china that there are so many people who get excellent scores in tests, and yet is unable to find jobs. Simply because jobs suitable for them isn't there, nor are there that many opportunities. The sort of rote learning is really exacerbating the problem, not helping, because the students studied hard (despite not being their "passion"), they get a good mark, but still find themselves in a rathole.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#242

Post by chii » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 11:41 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #136

imbriaco wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your responsibility is to your kids and not to some idealistic vision of what you could be doing to improve the school system as a whole.

False dichotomy. Your responsibility as a parent is to your children. Your responsibility as a citizen is to run your government effectively. Captain TLDR above is basically saying "fuck other people's kids", which is abdicating his civic responsibility.

Nobody has any inherent civic responsibility. They may choose to, at their discretion, participate. Your only responsibility is to follow the letter of the law, in such a way that benefits you the most.

If one believes that the private education sector serves their kids better, so let it be for them. The welbeing of other people's kids is at most a passing concern, and it would be in fact unfair to your own kid if you had the resources to "improve" other kids but not focus it entirely on your own kid.

YOu might think such a philosophy is selfish. I would agree, but only because not everyone is following such a philosophy (and of course, other inherent unfairness in the world, like amount of money you have). But such is the world as it is. I don't hold it against anyone who does the same, for I also would choose to do the same.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#243

Post by chii » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 11:54 AM UTC

NoPiece wrote: post #189

betterunix wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like memorization to me. Looks like the questions are formulaic, and that students are expected to memorize both the formulas needed to answer the questions and the formula that the question itself follows. Sure, a student who actually understands the material will pass the test; but a student who does not actually understand the material can pass too, and will have an easier time doing so. If you accept the no…

I disagree that using memorized formulas to solve math problems isn't meaningful learning. But granting you that, I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. That's better than most people, and enough of a tool to make math an asset for that person in life. Students who conceptually get it, and those who have just "memorized" will…

> I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story.

but what is the goal here? I assume the goal is to teach that person how to notice a situation in real life, and use the knowledge learned at school to cope with that situation.

Does rote learning actually help for such a goal?

I argue that it _might_, but only if the situation "looks" similar to one of the pre-prepared situations that the student has studied.

Those who have grasped the concept, and is able to gain deep understanding of fundamental principles, will be much better prepared for that eventual situation mentioned above. And if i was an employer, I'd want to hire that person, instead of the one who learnt by rote.

Now, granted, there isn't really an easy way to distinguish between the two above. Which is why the standard test is used - its the best we've got. But if the teaching method is allowed to be influenced by these standarized tests such that the student, instead of gaining a deep understanding, is relegated to just rote learning, he/she will never really be able to apply what they've learnt to situations they've never encountered before, and thus, the goal is not fullfilled.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#244

Post by chii » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:05 PM UTC

imroot wrote: post #65

My wife was a full time teacher (she's now working on her Ph.D in educational technologies), and she's said the same thing over, over, and over again. Her first year out of her probationary year was a Kindergarden teacher. She had a girl in her class who had telltale signs of EBD (Emotional/Behavioral Disorders), and spent the year trying to convince the girl's mother to seek the appropriate (free) care from the educ…

I m sorry to hear about the experiences of your wife - i feel that whoever reassigned her to juvie might've even done it with the best of intentions, but is incompetent and made the worst possible decision.

The open courses may lead to a more distributed education paradigm, and i think that ways lies the future. However, the process of ranking is such a subjective method, that i don't believe there will ever be a way to do so and not have it tampered with either via politics or personal gain.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#245

Post by chii » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:06 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #23

There is a defence. An engaged, informed, active, body of parents who will take action to ensure their children receive best schooling and care available. Take 100 irate parents to the next North Carolina State Board meeting and have them raise individually one after the other motions of no-confidence in each member. Then try to elect this woman to the Board. Will that help. Yes if you keep up the pressure for the 14…

Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of parents wash their hands free of the process, but complain when their kids don't get the high marks they think they ought to. And looking for someone to blame, instead of looking at making it work.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#246

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:24 PM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #182

yummyfajitas wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subjective opinions of a teacher are not a metric, they are merely a noisy data set. They are also nearly worthless scientifically - they are incomparable (how do you compare the opinion of teacher A to that of teacher B) and non-reproducible (how can one repeat an observation).

All true, of course. But numerically accurate data on a proxy quantity that you don't care about are not necessarily inferior to numerically inaccurate data on the quantity you care about. Both pose challenges to interpretation. It's easy to be seduced by clear numbers and worry less about what the numbers mean. We can argue about which fields count as "science", but many fields try to learn from non-reproducible dat…

Standardized tests typically measure how good a student is at adding, subtracting, and reading a paragraph and using the information it contains.

Why do you feel we don't care about that? What information should we care about?

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#247

Post by intended » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:25 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #235

intended wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

There is a reason why rote learning to some extent works especially in India. There is so much competition you are likely to inevitably work very hard. So much effort that you will ultimately get it even if didn't want to. I know this is brute force way of getting things done. But it is still far better than getting nothing done.

That's mixing up measurement for achievement.

We make mental body builders.

But they make terrible people and thinkers. The idea of educated here is lost. Most of the debate the average person can create is middlebrow at best.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#248

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #221

yummyfajitas wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the education system is to create a well-informed citizenry prepared for a productive life and for the duty of running a country. Could you be specific? In particular, how do I measure whether a citizen is prepared for a productive life or not? Heck, we could start by testing the hypothesis that getting everybody to focus lots of classroom time on standardized tests improves actual education. How would…

Why is it suddenly my job to make up tests? If you'd like some, give it a go. My point is that NCLB is scientific in the same way Taylorism was: it's a cargo cult activity that takes on the trappings of science and looks for something easy to measure. And then uses those measures in ways that aren't scientifically validated at all.

I'm asking you what evidence (if any) would change your belief. Perhaps no evidence is capable of changing your mind.

That's fine - you've just adopted a different philosophy, one of the "other ways of knowing" rather than science.

My point is that NCLB...

I'm not arguing for NCLB, I'm arguing that objective, comparable and reproducible measurements are the only viable way to optimize a system.

If you want to argue some specific metric is flawed, do it. Explain what should be measured and how the particular metric differs from it (i.e., details). So far, not a single person in this thread has actually done that - the closest we came was this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4713558

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#249

Post by DanielStraight » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:35 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #43

DanielStraight wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the last few real-world problems I've solved (or attempted to solve) with math: If you have a widget (roughly shaped like a cone with the tip chopped off) held at angle a and the widget is tapered at angle b and the tip of the widget has a diameter d , how far is it in x and y from the center of the tip of the widget to the theoretical tip were the taper continued to a point? If two 14" pizzas feed five peop…

I agree with all this, but consider that the type of math being tested on a standardized test is a subset of the skills you mention. You certainly can't perform complex word problems unless you can do the algebra or geometry calculations, whereas the converse is not true. IOW, standardized testing of math is testing the bare minimum, and a successful teacher should be able to teach this bare minimum. If a teacher can…

But if "what gets measured gets done", then teachers will likely take time away from these more complex skills to spend more time going over what's on the test. This is especially true if you tie compensation and continued employment for teachers, and college admission and scholarships for students to test performance.

Re: North Carolina teacher's resignation letter

#250

Post by InclinedPlane » Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:39 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #235

intended wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I read the article and I have no idea how you found this to be the most important part. I studied in India, and had a chance to study abroad as well. Currently, for reasons that escape me, you lot (Americans) seem to have decided to import those banes of thinking and real learning - standardized tests. Perhaps in order to have some sort of proxy or measurement for what is inherently a chaotic and un-measurable s…

There is a reason why rote learning to some extent works especially in India. There is so much competition you are likely to inevitably work very hard. So much effort that you will ultimately get it even if didn't want to. I know this is brute force way of getting things done. But it is still far better than getting nothing done.

Oh? I can guarantee you that if I went and interviewed any graduates of a high school or university that concentrates on rote learning I could shred any notion that, on average, they had basic competency in the materials they are alleged to know.

The sad truth here is that it is possible to "fake it", at every level. For the most part a person can be productive in even the most technical of jobs without fully comprehending most of what they are working with. People talk about cargo cultism a lot, but in the real world cargo cultish behavior often works. A lot of times just going through the motions is enough to get by.

But that's no excuse to continue to wallow in mediocrity. We can and should do better.