Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

science.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 210 posts

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#141

Post by _DeadFred_ »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #120
troosevelt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really bother you that people care about their heritage? US culture is a culture that assimilates, people remember where they come from. It's almost mean-spirited that yall fault them for this. Better than forgetting. I remember where my ancestors came from because they came here from somewhere they were not wanted. What I would ask you is why does it irk you, why do you care? Is it some hindance to my cultur…

It's massively irritating because it's the usual US blend of total ignorance and massive arrogance. I used to do re-enactment in the UK, and after almost every show I'd have some idiot wander up and say "I'm a Saxon!" and blather shite at me about what that meant about their identity and culture. If I asked if that meant they weren't American, then obviously they'd react in horror at the suggestion. The idea that my…

Sorry when your ancestor's ran mine out we survived and chose to keep a bit of identity, some concept of self. You're right, we should have surrendered every right to it, every notion of those that came before us. Ungrateful us not to have submitted in a second way (the first was not submitting and, you know, surviving).

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#142

Post by StevePerkins »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #125
StevePerkins wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. People yearn for identity labels. It's a core part of human existance. 2. "White" and "American" are problematic identity labels. People therefore often reach back toward European ancestry (real or supposed), for identity labels that are less controversial. 3. The average person isn't aware (or concerned) that "Viking" isn't strictly an ethnicity. Because it's nevertheless a commonly used identity label. Not every…

1. You can't just steal someone else's identity labels when you've polluted your own so much that you can't stand them any more. 2. It would be so much more useful if Americans who didn't like what their country is doing actually fought for it to stop doing that, rather than trying to co-opt other people's identities. 3. Making up an almost-completely-bullshit identity marker like the modern version of Vikings is eve…

While I personally agree that claiming any European identity label from 400+ years ago is silly, I disagree that there's any winning move other than ignoring the slacktivist noise. The people telling you that your natural identity labels are "polluted" will never be satisfied with any amount of "fighting" (i.e. arguing on social media). Because their own identity is that too wrapped up in that.

Also, in this particular instance, arguing both that "Viking" is an imaginary identity that no one really has today, AND that it's being stolen from someone else and erased, is absurd. Other Nordic commenters here have discussed contexts in which the term "Viking" is used today, and it sounds like the same semi-cheeky spirit that everyone else says it.

You will always find plenty of buyers on HN and Reddit for general anti-US sentiment. But probably fewer takers for the unjust oppression of northern European white dudes.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#143

Post by _DeadFred_ »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #139
henrikschroder wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weirdest part is that they stop tracing back the second they hit someone interesting, as if nothing interesting happened before that person. If their great-great-grandfather was Scottish, they then assume everyone before him was 100% super duper Scottish, and that that has conferred "cultural traits" through some weird-ass blood magic or something. But Europeans are diverse mutts as well. I'm Swedish. But my last…

haha, great point about the language. An Irish friend of mine would speak Gaelic to any American he met who claimed to be Irish. Obviously none of them spoke the language, and he'd ask why not? Great question.

Maybe because our family were forced to flee from Ireland to survive. My irish grandmothers (on my mom's side) arrived in the US child orphans (their families died on the boats) and were adopted by German families. God they are losers for not keeping up the linguistic tradition, right? We should give up any connection to the past because those little orphan girls ended up speaking english. So superior, your Irish friend, over people just trying to have some sort of connection to the world. You are some hateful petty ass people that you come at people just trying to connect.

Edit: Funny I replied the answer to "Obviously none of them spoke the language, and he'd ask why not? Great question."

Why did you just move on? You should be happy to have your 'great question' belittling my family answered. It's because of death, and survival, and scraping by to survive, lots of pieces got lost. That was your ownage. That our families were broken people just surviving and sometimes language was one the the pieces we lost. Pieces we are excited to maybe explore when we visit europe, (until we run into people like you). I have an old family bible with Gaelic that my family wrote in it. But that isn't a connection, right?

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#144

Post by marcus_holmes »

StevePerkins wrote: post #142
marcus_holmes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You can't just steal someone else's identity labels when you've polluted your own so much that you can't stand them any more. 2. It would be so much more useful if Americans who didn't like what their country is doing actually fought for it to stop doing that, rather than trying to co-opt other people's identities. 3. Making up an almost-completely-bullshit identity marker like the modern version of Vikings is eve…

While I personally agree that claiming any European identity label from 400+ years ago is silly, I disagree that there's any winning move other than ignoring the slacktivist noise. The people telling you that your natural identity labels are "polluted" will never be satisfied with any amount of "fighting" (i.e. arguing on social media). Because their own identity is that too wrapped up in that. Also, in this particul…

> Also, in this particular instance, arguing both that "Viking" is an imaginary identity that no one really has today, AND that it's being stolen from someone else and erased, is absurd. Other Nordic commenters here have discussed contexts in which the term "Viking" is used today, and it sounds like the same semi-cheeky spirit that everyone else uses it.

No, I think this is part of the point, if not the entire point.

There were actual Vikings. Not a genetic ethnicity, but a profession that others would recognise. Real people really called themselves Vikings, and probably took some pride in that identity.

Making up some bullshit ethnicity around Vikings erases that. Those real people's history becomes polluted with the made-up bullshit. For example: modern Dark Age and Early Medieval re-enactment groups are having a real problem with people joining who are cosplaying the utterly inaccurate Vikings series. They're not interested in learning about the real Vikings, the real people who did incredible things and who are much more interesting (but less photogenic).

So yes, "Viking" is an imaginary identity that no-one really has today, and yes, it is being stolen from actual real people who existed.

edit: and not all Vikings were Northern European white dudes, something you'd know if you read the article or knew anything about actual Vikings.

edit edit: in fact, everything about that statement is wrong. There were Vikings in Southern Europe. There were Vikings in North America. There were brown Vikings. There were female Vikings.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#145

Post by [deleted] »

henrikschroder wrote: post #137
marcus_holmes wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's massively irritating because it's the usual US blend of total ignorance and massive arrogance. I used to do re-enactment in the UK, and after almost every show I'd have some idiot wander up and say "I'm a Saxon!" and blather shite at me about what that meant about their identity and culture. If I asked if that meant they weren't American, then obviously they'd react in horror at the suggestion. The idea that my…

The weirdest part is that they stop tracing back the second they hit someone interesting, as if nothing interesting happened before that person. If their great-great-grandfather was Scottish, they then assume everyone before him was 100% super duper Scottish, and that that has conferred "cultural traits" through some weird-ass blood magic or something. But Europeans are diverse mutts as well. I'm Swedish. But my last…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#146

Post by marcus_holmes »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #143
marcus_holmes wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha, great point about the language. An Irish friend of mine would speak Gaelic to any American he met who claimed to be Irish. Obviously none of them spoke the language, and he'd ask why not? Great question.

Maybe because our family were forced to flee from Ireland to survive. My irish grandmothers (on my mom's side) arrived in the US child orphans (their families died on the boats) and were adopted by German families. God they are losers for not keeping up the linguistic tradition, right? We should give up any connection to the past because those little orphan girls ended up speaking english. So superior, your Irish fri…

I don't think anyone has a problem with saying "my family came from Ireland", or even "my family was forced to flee Ireland because the British are bastards". Or even "Irish American" would be OK.

The problem we all see is that you're saying that you are Irish. If you weren't born in Ireland, your parents weren't born in Ireland, you don't speak Irish, you don't pay taxes in Ireland, you can't vote in Irish elections, you wouldn't join the Irish military, you don't understand Irish culture, or know anything about Irish history, then in what way are you Irish?

You're not. But you have redefined "Irish" to mean something else. And that's what pisses people off. There are actual Irish people out there. Invent your own identity.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#147

Post by marcus_holmes »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #141
marcus_holmes wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's massively irritating because it's the usual US blend of total ignorance and massive arrogance. I used to do re-enactment in the UK, and after almost every show I'd have some idiot wander up and say "I'm a Saxon!" and blather shite at me about what that meant about their identity and culture. If I asked if that meant they weren't American, then obviously they'd react in horror at the suggestion. The idea that my…

Sorry when your ancestor's ran mine out we survived and chose to keep a bit of identity, some concept of self. You're right, we should have surrendered every right to it, every notion of those that came before us. Ungrateful us not to have submitted in a second way (the first was not submitting and, you know, surviving).

You became American.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#148

Post by hyppopocriaas »

henrikschroder wrote: post #137
marcus_holmes wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's massively irritating because it's the usual US blend of total ignorance and massive arrogance. I used to do re-enactment in the UK, and after almost every show I'd have some idiot wander up and say "I'm a Saxon!" and blather shite at me about what that meant about their identity and culture. If I asked if that meant they weren't American, then obviously they'd react in horror at the suggestion. The idea that my…

The weirdest part is that they stop tracing back the second they hit someone interesting, as if nothing interesting happened before that person. If their great-great-grandfather was Scottish, they then assume everyone before him was 100% super duper Scottish, and that that has conferred "cultural traits" through some weird-ass blood magic or something. But Europeans are diverse mutts as well. I'm Swedish. But my last…

What's funny about those Europeans gatekeeping European ethnic identity from Americans, is that their tune will change immediately if we ask them if an African who has been there for 5 years is English or German.

See the response from marcus_holmes about "Irishness" in this thread. It's essentially the position of ethnic nationalist parties like Restore Britain. But in a different context he'd be ranting about civic nationalist parties like Reform UK or One Nation...

Basically, if an American is claiming to be whatever, you can use a purity standard close to the Nuremberg laws to exclude them. But an Indian or African who arrived 5 years ago is a true blood Aussie mate, because saying anything else would be doing a racism.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#149

Post by _DeadFred_ »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #147
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry when your ancestor's ran mine out we survived and chose to keep a bit of identity, some concept of self. You're right, we should have surrendered every right to it, every notion of those that came before us. Ungrateful us not to have submitted in a second way (the first was not submitting and, you know, surviving).

You became American.

Identity doesn't work that way. Doesn't change where my family came from, my families traditions, what identity bits my family chose to hang onto, or how we try to understand the world.

Good job keeping up your culture of being petty judges of us though. At least when your ancestors did it we were your neighbors and you had good cause (we were the wrong religion or whatever your ancestors hated in us and your family got to live and stay and mine had to flee and die). It's kinda pathetic to care after you ran us off to still try to tell us how to be and to define us instead of letting us define ourselves.

Wild to see you so proud to be petty, small, and hateful of people that did nothing to you all but want to be friendly.

Re: ‘Viking’ was a job, not a matter of heredity: ancient DNA study (2020)

#150

Post by brigandish »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #120
troosevelt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really bother you that people care about their heritage? US culture is a culture that assimilates, people remember where they come from. It's almost mean-spirited that yall fault them for this. Better than forgetting. I remember where my ancestors came from because they came here from somewhere they were not wanted. What I would ask you is why does it irk you, why do you care? Is it some hindance to my cultur…

It's massively irritating because it's the usual US blend of total ignorance and massive arrogance. I used to do re-enactment in the UK, and after almost every show I'd have some idiot wander up and say "I'm a Saxon!" and blather shite at me about what that meant about their identity and culture. If I asked if that meant they weren't American, then obviously they'd react in horror at the suggestion. The idea that my…

Ethnicity and nationality are not the same, though they have until very recently overlapped to an enormous extent. Someone might well be of anglo-saxon ethnicity and be American.

Being British myself, I find it fun to tease the yanks about all manner of things, but actual animus of the kind you’re displaying just looks like a massive chip on the shoulder.

Post reply on HN