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A simple web we own

rsdoiel.github.io

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Re: A simple web we own

#121

Post by HappMacDonald »

Driver8 wrote: post #116
pessimizer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People can work for a better world. That sometimes works, too. Not when people make arguments based on dreams, hope, and optimism. If somebody tells me that we can build a shed, I want them to talk about wood, nails and concrete, or to stop talking.

But you don't necessarily need wood, nails or concrete to build a shed. Once we start specifying things like that we stop considering alternatives that could be legitimate options.

But until we start specifying things like that nothing gets built

Re: A simple web we own

#123

Post by txrx0000 »

beders wrote: post #72

As someone who is roughly in the same age group as the author and who was running a BBS, has witnessed the rise of IP4 networks, HTTP, Mosaic etc. let me provide a counter-point. The democratization ends at your router. Unless you are willing to lay down your own wires - which for legal reasons you most likely won't be able to do, we will hopelessly be dependent on the ISP. (Radio on free frequencies is possible and…

There is hope. It's not only possible, but it is likely and is already underway. DNS can be replaced. IPv4/v6 can be replaced. We just need to build a layer on top that ignores the access controls of the underlying layer (the Internet), then replace the underlying layer altogether with new infrastructure.

There will be more efforts like this: https://yggdrasil-network.github.io

Those who want control over other people's mouths and eyes and ears, and rely on it to maintain their undeserved authority and prosperity are going to have a bad time.

Re: A simple web we own

#124

Post by txrx0000 »

glitchc wrote: post #92
shevy-java wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short: there's no hope of getting a world-wide, free, uncensored, unlimited IP4/6 network back. We never had it in the first place. We can build such a society. I am not sure why you think this is never possible. People can work for a better world. That sometimes works, too.

Kumbaya is never a motivator. Now, self-interest, on the other hand...

Kumbaya is also a form of self-interest. We're still very much self-interested, it's just that we can see a tiny bit further into the future and realize that we need to better our surroundings in order to live the life we want.

Re: A simple web we own

#125

Post by phendrenad2 »

swiftcoder wrote: post #61
phendrenad2 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you "own" a VPS?

Well, you pay for it at least, and hence enter into a contract with the service provider. A free GitHub account is a come-on by Microsoft to enmesh you further in the world of hosted services - the precise thing this manifesto is complaining about

I don't think the manifesto says anything about that actually.

Re: A simple web we own

#126

Post by fragmede »

pessimizer wrote: post #87
shevy-java wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short: there's no hope of getting a world-wide, free, uncensored, unlimited IP4/6 network back. We never had it in the first place. We can build such a society. I am not sure why you think this is never possible. People can work for a better world. That sometimes works, too.

> People can work for a better world. That sometimes works, too. Not when people make arguments based on dreams, hope, and optimism. If somebody tells me that we can build a shed, I want them to talk about wood, nails and concrete, or to stop talking.

If someone tells me we can build a shed, I'm going to ask who's land are we building it on, who's paying for it, what zoning/permitting laws apply, who's going to own it (form an LLC or a -corp with shares). The kind of wood and the type of nails aren't even worth wasting time discussing until we've answered those questions first.

Re: A simple web we own

#127

Post by fragmede »

trueno wrote: post #84
shevy-java wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short: there's no hope of getting a world-wide, free, uncensored, unlimited IP4/6 network back. We never had it in the first place. We can build such a society. I am not sure why you think this is never possible. People can work for a better world. That sometimes works, too.

The technology is the easy part, the people are the hard part. The reality is that we simply don't have thought leaders in charge anymore, there's no innovations or anything that are coming to correct course, very few if any channels even exist anymore for good ideas to flow upwards that result in good & proper solution implementations that positively preserve/protect/harden what we want the web to be. I think a lot…

Stop paying attention to every little thing that happens. Pay enough attention that you're not totally ignorant, but don't give it so much air that you get overwhelmed to the point of inaction.

Re: A simple web we own

#128

Post by ryandrake »

nine_k wrote: post #32
RajT88 wrote: post #25

The only way we own a web of our own is to develop much more of a culture of leaving smallish machines online all the time. Imagine something like Tor or BitTorrent, but everyone has a very simple way of running their own node for content hosting. That always-on device? To get critical mass, instead of just the nerds, you'd need it to ship with devices which are always-on, like routers/gateways, smart TV's. Then you'…

This is very right. There are two obstacles. (1) Security. An always-on, externally accessible device will always be a target for breaking in. You want the device to be bulletproof, and to have defense in depth, so that breaking into one service does not affect anything else. Something like Proxmox that works on low-end hardware and is as easy to administer as a mobile phone would do. We are somehow far from this yet…

> Connectivity providers should allow that. Most home routers don't get a static IP, or even a globally routable IPv4 at all. Or even a stable IPv6.

At least we still have DDNS which solves the static IP problem. I've been using it for at least 10-15 years and my home network has always been resolvable over DNS. I guess I'm lucky that I've always had an ISP that handed out publicly routable IPv4 addresses. I think if I joined an ISP where I got some internal node on the ISP's 10.x.x.x network, I'd immediately cancel my service.

Re: A simple web we own

#129

Post by cpill »

I wonder how hard a distributed search algorithm would be to build into a web server? I guess it would be open to bad actors, but there would also be a way to stop that, distributed moderation?

I made a content management system (CMS) for some friends years ago which was very easy to use. It's main paradigm was: 1 folder = 1 page. This was very easy for anyone to manage. Files in the folder were rendered in sort order so you could have an image followed by some markdown etc Was so easy to use I never got anyone (mostly non-technical artists) asking how to change something on their site. Most ppl understand how to organise their content as files and folders. It is the easiest UI I've ever seen for a CMS i.e. no UI :P Was going to expand it to read files from a Dropbox folder so they didn't even need FTP but life... It was in PHP, which at the time, all ISPs supported. Setup was: copy code, change files/folders in `/content` dir and your away.

Re: A simple web we own

#130

Post by nanobuilds »

mrcwinn wrote: post #76

This is silly nonsense. >I publish this site via GitHub Pages Okay, and that depends on an entire economy and infrastructure of privately owned switching, other network equipment, fiber optic, etc, etc, etc, -- not to mention that if GitHub did not have, as a private company, a profit motive, they wouldn't even bother to offer the service you're using. Sure, yes, rebuild the world but if you want it to be free like o…

The spirit and goal is respectable. How we get there, convincing people to join a new web and making it easy and attractive to replace 30 year old infra is something else.
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