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Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

nytimes.com

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Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#41

Post by echoangle »

JasonADrury wrote: post #24
echoangle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> justified retaliation I don’t see how it would be justified. Do you think the cartels are in the right here?

> Do you think the cartels are in the right here? Of course not, none of the sides are at all in the right here. But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Drug cartels are entirely the result of poor policies, and the blame for all the harms caused by them rests primarily on the shoulders of those perpetuating those policies. Surely the politicians that vote for laws that directly enabl…

> But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right.

Sure, but so is basically everyone. ISIS is in the right and justified then, too.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#42

Post by roger110 »

echoangle wrote: post #41
JasonADrury wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think the cartels are in the right here? Of course not, none of the sides are at all in the right here. But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Drug cartels are entirely the result of poor policies, and the blame for all the harms caused by them rests primarily on the shoulders of those perpetuating those policies. Surely the politicians that vote for laws that directly enabl…

> But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Sure, but so is basically everyone. ISIS is in the right and justified then, too.

Also, coalition didn't get rid of ISIS by negotiation or something. They used bombs and, in one advisor's words, entrenching tools.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#43

Post by roger110 »

JasonADrury wrote: post #40
roger110 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said something like "nobody is in the right here" and called the cartel response a "justified retaliation"

Government obviously isn't in the right when it simultaneously continues perpetuating policies that ensure the continued existence of the cartels.

Ok, to everyone else this probably sounds like cartel apologia. They make an actual step towards destroying the cartels, and you complain.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#44

Post by roger110 »

rayiner wrote: post #33
TacticalCoder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently as "retaliation" from the cartel because their boss was killed. Where do you draw the line? At what point do you decide to go full El Salvador / Bukele on violent cartel members who are willing to put cities on fire when they cannot human and drug traffic at will? When is enough enough?

> At what point do you decide to go full El Salvador / Bukele on violent cartel members who are willing to put cities on fire when they cannot human and drug traffic at will? The point for doing that was some time ago. It's like Islamists. They're so sophisticated that it makes more sense for governments to treat them like foreign military threats than domestic police issues. Don't listen to the "human rights" people…

The "human rights" thing reminds me of El Chapo. They put him in jail, he escapes, and so on. Seeing how he's not even a US citizen, there's a very obvious solution here.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#45

Post by nate_meurer »

anal_reactor wrote: post #17
SilverElfin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re overdue. Sheinbaum and other administrators probably didn’t act until now because they’re serving at the cartel’s pleasure. Now with America pressuring them, they’ve finally acted. But if they can’t bring the country under control, it’s going to sink the country and its legitimacy. You can’t have criminals burning airports, school buses, and grocery stores (things I saw videos of earlier).

What if the destabilization of Mexico was the goal so that the US could justify military intervention?

This isn't 1846. Mexico is our largest single trading partner. Spending our own lives and treasure to babysit an unstable nation on our Southern border is in fact the last thing the US (whoever you're asking) wants.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#46

Post by JasonADrury »

echoangle wrote: post #41
JasonADrury wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think the cartels are in the right here? Of course not, none of the sides are at all in the right here. But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Drug cartels are entirely the result of poor policies, and the blame for all the harms caused by them rests primarily on the shoulders of those perpetuating those policies. Surely the politicians that vote for laws that directly enabl…

> But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Sure, but so is basically everyone. ISIS is in the right and justified then, too.

> Sure, but so is basically everyone.

Well, sure! The crucial difference between cartels and ISIS is that the cartels are in it to make money, ISIS is an ideologically motivated nation-building project.

The cartels disappear when the activity becomes unprofitable, ISIS does not.

The cartels tend to use violence when it's profitable, ISIS will use violence because they believe that an imaginary man wants them to do so.

You could legalize and regulate their drug-related business, paying a small amount of taxes will probably be more attractive than maintaining a private military in the long term.

Alternatively you can fight like this, barely dent the cartels and instead cause massive amounts of suffering for the regular people who live in the middle of it all? If you actually cared about improving things rather than making a show, surely you'd want to pursue policies that (a) actually help you get rid of the negative influence of the cartels and (b) avoid collateral damage by not forcing the cartels to retaliate.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#47

Post by JasonADrury »

roger110 wrote: post #43
JasonADrury wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government obviously isn't in the right when it simultaneously continues perpetuating policies that ensure the continued existence of the cartels.

Ok, to everyone else this probably sounds like cartel apologia. They make an actual step towards destroying the cartels, and you complain.

This list is pretty telling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Mexico_most-wanted_drug_l...

They're all dead or captured, you could make a new list like that every 10 years. Things do not improve.

> They make an actual step towards destroying the cartels, and you complain

That's a lie. If this was "an actual step towards destroying the cartels" the countless similar instances in the past would have taken us in that direction, instead the cartels keep growing and not shrinking. There's simply no way a reasonable person could conclude that this is a step towards destroying the cartels.

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#48

Post by pipeline_peak »

JasonADrury wrote: post #46
echoangle wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But from the cartels perspective, they're almost certainly in the right. Sure, but so is basically everyone. ISIS is in the right and justified then, too.

> Sure, but so is basically everyone. Well, sure! The crucial difference between cartels and ISIS is that the cartels are in it to make money, ISIS is an ideologically motivated nation-building project. The cartels disappear when the activity becomes unprofitable, ISIS does not. The cartels tend to use violence when it's profitable, ISIS will use violence because they believe that an imaginary man wants them to do so…

> not forcing the cartels to retaliate.

What do you mean forcing? They are organized crime, this is what they choose to do. The right thing for them to do is turn themselves in.

How do you expect the cartel to subside and eventually dissolve? Policies that encourage them to play nicely?

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#49

Post by anal_reactor »

nate_meurer wrote: post #45
anal_reactor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the destabilization of Mexico was the goal so that the US could justify military intervention?

This isn't 1846. Mexico is our largest single trading partner. Spending our own lives and treasure to babysit an unstable nation on our Southern border is in fact the last thing the US (whoever you're asking) wants.

What's the alternative then, if the baby refuses to get its shit together?

Re: Mexican Forces Kill Nation's Most-Wanted Cartel Boss

#50

Post by defrost »

anal_reactor wrote: post #49
nate_meurer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't 1846. Mexico is our largest single trading partner. Spending our own lives and treasure to babysit an unstable nation on our Southern border is in fact the last thing the US (whoever you're asking) wants.

What's the alternative then, if the baby refuses to get its shit together?

That's the pressing question, watching the truth social meltdown following the supreme court tariff decisions really has allies wondering if the US system has functional guardrails and if the will to bell the cat exists sufficiently to exercise them.
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