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Keep Android Open

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Re: Keep Android Open

#141

Post by ForHackernews »

dmitrygr wrote: post #127
microtonal wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how the European Union works. One of the core goals of the EU is to guarantee the European single market. One of the core principles of the single market is the Freedom to establish and provide services [1]. The Apple/Google duopoly have effectively created a market within the single market where the core principles of the single market do not apply anymore. Tech has a strong tendency to favor outcomes wi…

Yes. I am effectively asking you what the moral justification for DMA is. I understand that lawmakers can make whatever law they want. I understand they made it. I am curious how people who agree this should be possible think of this from a moral angle, especially as engineers who make their living by creating intellectual property and probably wouldn’t want to see control of it seized randomly

The moral argument is that vertically integrated monopolies threaten the rights of consumers, who are human beings. Corporations are legal fictions and their "rights" are another convenient fiction to align incentives. They carry zero moral weight.

Re: Keep Android Open

#142

Post by gethly »

Just like Microsoft screwed up Windows, Google will screw up Android and people will move to Linux on PCs and some open version of Android, or Harmony, or whatever new mobile system comes up, on their phones.

Nothing lasts for ever. The sooner you make the switch, the better off you will be.

Re: Keep Android Open

#143

Post by Tharre »

paxys wrote: post #91
microtonal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hard fork is not needed. Non-Google Android do not have to enforce this requirement. It's more important to get as many people on alternatives like GrapheneOS as possible. And fund them by donating to them. If every ~0.5 million GrapheneOS users donated 10 Euro per month, they would be very well-funded.

There is no such thing as non-Google Android. At most you have people applying tiny patches on top of AOSP, but 100% of the code in the underlying project is still Google-approved, and none of the alternatives have control over that. It's the same as the situation with Chrome/Chromium. There are a million "de-Googled"/"privacy focused" alternatives to Chrome all using the same engine, and when Google pushed manifest…

> and when Google pushed manifest v3 changes to block ad-blockers every single one of them was affected.

That's just objectively wrong, both Brave and Opera still support manifest v2 and are committed to continue doing so for the foreseeable future. Even Edge apparently still has it, funnily enough.

Re: Keep Android Open

#144

Post by microtonal »

kelnos wrote: post #78
Pfhortune wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] I run GrapheneOS and use several US-based banking apps. I'll not name them since I don't really want my HN account associated with my financials in any way, but I've got a mix of well-known national bank apps and smaller local credit union apps working. I'll admit there is a single institution's app I've found that doesn't work, but that is just one of several that I use.

For me, the showstopper would be NFC payments. From what I understand, Google Pay doesn't work on Graphene. I have all my credit cards in GPay, as well as a transit card. I use it for boarding passes when I fly, and any other tickets/passes that support it, since it tends to be much more reliable than the airline or ticketer's app. I've come to heavily rely on it, unfortunately.

I haven't tried this, because I try to minimize Google exposure, but I think Google Wallet (minus NFC payments) works on GrapheneOS. So, tickets, boarding passes, etc. should work fine.

Re: Keep Android Open

#145

Post by microtonal »

drnick1 wrote: post #38
pmontra wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common answer but it does not apply to at least most of Europe. Because of regulations most banks require to install their app either on iOS or Android to act as a 2FA device. One of my banks gave me a hardware device 20 years ago. When its battery dies I'll have to use their app and my fingerprint.

If you really don't have an alternative in Europe, buy the cheapest Googled Android device (less than $100 or euros), and use that as a glorified 2FA device. It's not ideal because you have to pay for it, but on the other hand Android devices with unlockable bootloaders (mostly Google Pixels now) tend to be cheaper than iThings. A Pixel 9a or 10a running Graphene for everyday use plus a cheap Android phone that stays…

Most European banking apps work fine though on a relocked GrapheneOS phone.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

I'm using my GrapheneOS phone to log on to their web app without issues (though I typically only do banking on my phone, much more secure).

Re: Keep Android Open

#146

Post by gonzalohm »

paxys wrote: post #95
handity wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hard fork doesn't matter when the vast majority of phones have a locked bootloader.

Google's own phones do not have a locked booloader. You can buy a Pixel and put GrapheneOS on it in like 10 minutes. But basically no one does this, because no matter what people say in online forums they actually value ease of use and shiny features over privacy and software freedom.

That's probably their next target once android is fully locked down

Re: Keep Android Open

#147

Post by victorbjorklund »

dmitrygr wrote: post #105
ruuda wrote: post #8

I contacted the EU DMA team about my concerns and got a real reply within 24 hours. Not just an automated message, it looked like a real human read my message and wrote a reply. I'd urge other EU citizens to do the same.

[flagged]

Party A does not owe Party B the right to sell in Party A:s legal area.

Party B is allowed to choose not to sell in EU. If you wanna sell in EU you have to comply with EU rules. If you wanna sell in US you have to comply with US laws. That simple.

Re: Keep Android Open

#148

Post by arcanemachiner »

fermigier wrote: post #62

It is a disgrace how Google has managed this situation. To recap the storyline, as far as I understand it: last August, Google announced plans to heavily restrict sideloading. Following community pushback, they promised an "advanced flow" for power users. The media widely reported this as a walk-back, leading users to assume the open ecosystem was safe. But this promised feature hasn't appeared in any Android 16 or 1…

If this finally pushes adoption of truly open Linux phones, then this will end up being a good thing, and the greatest favor that Google could do for the open source community.

Tragically, Linux phones have languished and are in an absolute state these days, but a lot of the building blocks are in place if user adoption occurs en masse. (Shout out to the lunatics who have kept this dream alive during these dark years.)

Re: Keep Android Open

#149

Post by victorbjorklund »

dmitrygr wrote: post #127
microtonal wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how the European Union works. One of the core goals of the EU is to guarantee the European single market. One of the core principles of the single market is the Freedom to establish and provide services [1]. The Apple/Google duopoly have effectively created a market within the single market where the core principles of the single market do not apply anymore. Tech has a strong tendency to favor outcomes wi…

Yes. I am effectively asking you what the moral justification for DMA is. I understand that lawmakers can make whatever law they want. I understand they made it. I am curious how people who agree this should be possible think of this from a moral angle, especially as engineers who make their living by creating intellectual property and probably wouldn’t want to see control of it seized randomly

They are 100% free to not sell to European customers

Re: Keep Android Open

#150

Post by verisimi »

afh1 wrote: post #133
ruuda wrote: post #8

I contacted the EU DMA team about my concerns and got a real reply within 24 hours. Not just an automated message, it looked like a real human read my message and wrote a reply. I'd urge other EU citizens to do the same.

[flagged]

[flagged]
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