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Keep Android Open

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Re: Keep Android Open

#131

Post by dmitrygr »

moron4hire wrote: post #126
dmitrygr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

My moral justification is that my right to do with the physical property I have in my physical hand is more important than any noncorporeal corporation's right to do anything with their noncorporeal intellectual property. The truth is, I gave party C money for a product. Party B does not get to say anything about what party C gave me. And they absolutely do owe me something, and that is the use of the product they ga…

And you can use it. You can, in fact, keep using the software that shipped on it. What you want is access to further intellectual property they develop (updates, features), that just so happens to be able to run on your hardware and ability to shepherd it in a direction you want and they don’t.

Re: Keep Android Open

#132

Post by Zak »

idiotsecant wrote: post #39
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We heard from developers who were concerned about the barrier to entry when building apps intended only for a small group, like family or friends. We are using your input to shape a dedicated account type for students and hobbyists. This will allow you to distribute your creations to a limited number of devices without going through the full verification requirements. In classic Google fashion, they hear the compla…

I think you've omitted the next section, which seems more relevant. It seems like they will still allow installs, just hide it behind some scare text. Seems reasonable?

> It seems like they will still allow installs, just hide it behind some scare text.

That describes the current (and long-established) behavior. App installation is only from Google's store by default and the user has to manually enable each additional source on a screen with scare text.

Re: Keep Android Open

#133

Post by afh1 »

ruuda wrote: post #8

I contacted the EU DMA team about my concerns and got a real reply within 24 hours. Not just an automated message, it looked like a real human read my message and wrote a reply. I'd urge other EU citizens to do the same.

[flagged]

Re: Keep Android Open

#134

Post by joecool1029 »

nimbius wrote: post #25

This isnt going to be a popular post because the HN crowd is very much a "China bad" crowd but I hypothesize China will likely step in and offer a fork that's compatible with open ecosystems not under the direct control of the us state department. This might be in the form of commits and investment in fdroid and pinephone, or a tiktok like alternative to the wests walled garden. Edit: this will likely exist "uncensor…

> China will likely step in and offer a fork that's compatible with open ecosystems not under the direct control of the us state department.

Where you been? They already had Huawei get kickbanned by Google and made their own OS (it's not more open): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS

Re: Keep Android Open

#135

Post by buckle8017 »

akdev1l wrote: post #116
microtonal wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impact is a direct threat to independent AOSP distributions like Murena's e/OS/ (which I'm personally using). I don't think this is true, right? An AOSP build can just decide to still allow installing arbitrary APKs. Also see this post from the GrapheneOS team: https://mastodon.social/@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social/116103...

You can’t really do that long-term as Google will change code that will not match however you are not enforcing this policy So at the very least you’d have to keep patches up to date. Long term divergence could be enough that’s it’s just a hard fork and/or Google changes so much that the maintainer can’t keep the patches working at the same pace I couldn’t read your link as it asks to join mastodon.social

The patch set for graphene is substantial, this is a relatively minor change.

Re: Keep Android Open

#136

Post by microtonal »

drnick1 wrote: post #30
0x1ch wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can't use banking or my NFC wallets on my phone, it has become 90% useless. The other 10% of usefulness is texting and calls, which every other phone can do. Unfortunately, this mostly means using the closed android ecosystem.

I run Graphene on my Pixel and banking apps just work. There is no Google Pay, obviously, since Google dependencies have been stripped out from the system. I just carry a credit card.

Same, some banks even proactively fix things to work on GrapheneOS when customers ask.

Re: Keep Android Open

#137

Post by franga2000 »

stackghost wrote: post #71
franga2000 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People buy high-end Android phones like crazy, I don't know what bubble you live in. Samsung Folds and Flips are the luxury phones, not the iPhone Pro Max S eXtreme Edition 32 GB that looks exactly like the base model but has a slightly better camera. People show off their S Pen and perfectly stabilised 100x zoom lens, not their liquid ass. Multi-window and DeX are features for professionals who need to Get Shit Done…

Putting "Samsung" and "luxury" in the same sentence is lunacy. Their proprietary Android is even worse than Google's. Where do you live? I've literally never seen anyone using a Fold or Flip device, ever. My kids are at the age where some of their peers are starting to get phones. All those kids have iPhones.

If your plan is to keep saying unsubstantiated bullshit, take that to Reddit. Go to a store and try modern OneUI - it's just AOSP with a slightly different layout and more features. The apps are worse than Google's, but the OS is better. Both are miles above iOS in features, especially for power users. Split screen, windows, chat bubbles, DeX, notification categories and history, vendor-neutral PC integration and TV casting, ...

And I don't quite see your point about your kids' friends using iPhones. I sure as hell wouldn't give a kid a "luxury" phone. I'd take the cheapest thing that does the job and lasts a long time. An iPhone has a very long software support window so the cheaper models actually end up cost-competitive with budget Androids.

As for folds and flips, I've mostly seen people in suits using them, along with a few techy power users and some kids with rich parents. That's a luxury phone in my book.

Re: Keep Android Open

#138

Post by hbn »

fermigier wrote: post #62

It is a disgrace how Google has managed this situation. To recap the storyline, as far as I understand it: last August, Google announced plans to heavily restrict sideloading. Following community pushback, they promised an "advanced flow" for power users. The media widely reported this as a walk-back, leading users to assume the open ecosystem was safe. But this promised feature hasn't appeared in any Android 16 or 1…

Who could Android be possibly recommended to at this point?

I know iPhones aren't affordable for the layman in many countries. But for anyone with an option, why would you buy an Android? All the "customization" things I cared about when I was on Android are either doable on an iPhone now with better implementation, or something I don't care about.

I was a die-hard until I went through enough cycles of Google deprecating and reinventing their apps and services every year, breaking my workflow/habits, that I got sick of them and moved to Apple everything. And all the changes I've seen since then are only making me happier I got out of the ecosystem when I did. Unlimited Google Photos backups with Pixels are gone, Google Play Music is gone, the free development/distribution environment is gone, etc.

If people can't even develop for the thing without going through the Google process, they're really just a shitty iOS knockoff.

Re: Keep Android Open

#139

Post by microtonal »

0x1ch wrote: post #27
hparadiz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why you are even bringing this up. It works just fine right now.

It verifiably does not on open source and free android roms like Graphene. Unsure where you're getting your info.

I use GrapheneOS with the Dutch ASN banking app and the ICS credit card app. Pretty much all other major Dutch banks work as well.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

Google Pay does not work, but some other NFC payment apps do (e.g. Curve).

Re: Keep Android Open

#140

Post by Ajedi32 »

tux1968 wrote: post #130
microtonal wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that step by step ownership of your device is taken away. First most phones stopped supporting unlocking/relocking (thank Google for keeping the Pixel open), now the backtracked version of this, next the full version, etc.

Yes, that is a real problem. But it doesn't justify arguing uncritically or unrealistically in other areas. I think people should be free to do anything they want with their own devices. They should be able to install any software they want. That's very different than demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire. ie. You should be able to install your own operating system, you don't get to tell them h…

> demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire

IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want.

Unfortunately, they've already done a lot of things to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. SafetyNet, locked bootloaders, closed-source system apps, and now they're (maybe) trying to layer "you can't install apps we don't approve of" on top of that.

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