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Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

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Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#31

Post by fauria »

hugodan wrote: post #28
fauria wrote: post #24

Spain was the first globalization, not Portugal. The article forgets to mention two key elements: 1) The Manila galeon[1], the first trading route connecting Europe, America and Asia. This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). 2) The Real de a Ocho[2], the first global currency, used virtually everywhere including the US until the modern dollar replaced it in 185…

Spain didn't exist back then

Establishing when did Spain become Spain is complicated, but a commonly agreed date is 1480, following the Cortes of Toledo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Castile

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#32

Post by hugodan »

fauria wrote: post #31
hugodan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain didn't exist back then

Establishing when did Spain become Spain is complicated, but a commonly agreed date is 1480, following the Cortes of Toledo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Castile

...more than 160 years after the portuguese navy was founded, and 20 years after Henry the Navigator was dead. Still not as big of a gap as those 19th century references that you linked to reply to a post about 15th century events

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#33

Post by leflambeur »

fauria wrote: post #30
sigmar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). You're saying because Portugal traded with Asia through the wrong ocean, it wasn't global? Seems like an odd metric.

No, I'm sayng that Portugal never closed the circuit that led to a global trade route. They built a line between Europe and Asia, but Asia and America remained economically disconnected. It was that loop that Spain closed that enabled a global economy.

This is true. Tordesillas meant that trans-Pacific trade was not realistic for Portugal.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#34

Post by JetSpiegel »

Also unmentioned is the disastrous intervention in the Moroccan civil war of 1580, where the teen king and most of its nobles were killed, leading to 60 years of Spanish rule. This is not at the apex of the empire, but close.

Also, Henry the Navigator downright stole or cajoled most of the "inovations" from Italian city states. For example, the Madeira island was named so by Italians, settled by some of Henry's minions.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#35

Post by JetSpiegel »

braza wrote: post #4

As a Brazilian, the whole improbable (and beautiful) history of Portugal raised by the "Navegações" and how badly they bottled the whole imperium (especially after the Brazilian independence, but one can argue that João VI opened the ports) and the sheer amount of lack of vision in not investing in production is something that will always amaze me. One can say that it was one of the longest imperiums in history (endi…

> Navegações

You mean "Descobrimentos", although that is kinda old fashioned.

They were "discovering" lands, the same way I discover Disneyland when I get there from the first time.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#38

Post by hugodan »

alephnerd wrote: post #25
leflambeur wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to look into the genetic composition of modern-day Brazilians to consider whether "Amerindians were exterminated" is a coherent way to represent it. edit: we are just comparing 2 completely different models here. You're not wrong about some things, you are just talking about a different thing than I :) edit 2: you are lacking information if you think that Brazilian Amerindians did not also partner with E…

My point still stands. Their culture was completely decimated and they were largely replaced by European and African migrants, indentured servants, and slaves. Subjugating a native people that lacked metalworking, gunpowder, and literacy is different from conquering multiple nations that had all of those and was backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans.

and just how did they got the gunpowder? ;)

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#39

Post by fauria »

hugodan wrote: post #32
fauria wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Establishing when did Spain become Spain is complicated, but a commonly agreed date is 1480, following the Cortes of Toledo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Castile

...more than 160 years after the portuguese navy was founded, and 20 years after Henry the Navigator was dead. Still not as big of a gap as those 19th century references that you linked to reply to a post about 15th century events

I'm not sure what the organizative reform of Spain has to do with the founding date of Spain and Portugal's navies. In any case, the Spanish Armada is the result of joining the Castilian and Aragonese navies, both dating from the early XIII century: https://armada.defensa.gob.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/Armad...

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#40

Post by alephnerd »

hugodan wrote: post #38
alephnerd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point still stands. Their culture was completely decimated and they were largely replaced by European and African migrants, indentured servants, and slaves. Subjugating a native people that lacked metalworking, gunpowder, and literacy is different from conquering multiple nations that had all of those and was backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans.

and just how did they got the gunpowder? ;)

The Rajahdoms and Sultanates that became Indonesia and Malaysia did so via existing domestic capacity and intercultural exchange with the Ottomans, Safavids, Mughals, and other "Gunpowder" empires [0][1].

Heck, the only reason the Dutch couldn't completely invade Aceh was because the Ottomans and Mughals threatened to sanction the Dutch [2] in the 17th century for threatening a fellow Sunni state.

We are reverting to the historical norm where we don't need you Farangis anymore. O facto de o IDH da Malásia ter atingido o IDH de Portugal de há 7 anos mostra que vocês, portugueses, precisam de rever os vossos egos. Tendo passado anos em Boston, conheci muitas pessoas do seu tipo - Brasileiro e português.

[0] - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/V/bo595652...

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_expeditions_to_Aceh

[2] - https://brill.com/display/book/9789004454460/B9789004454460_...

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