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Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

businessweek.com

31–40 of 70 posts

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#31

It's like the writer doesn't know that windmills can be stopped. In fact, they have builtin brakes which autoengage and stops the mill when the wind becomes too powerful.

If the power companies stop running the windmills, they don't get any money.

>Wind farms in West Texas earlier this year were paying utilities to use their electricity on particularly gusty days because they can still earn $22 a megawatt-hour in federal tax credits

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#32
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Northern Germany like the Netherlands consists entirely of flat land, so there are no hills to pump water up. Further more such solutions require a river relatively close to the hill that runs with enough water that the pumps have enough work to do and that can easily handle the water when you drain it. Even so such plants are used in the Middle and South of Germany where hills and mountains exists but you have to ge…

Germany has a unified grid, I'm sure. We need to remember how small Germany is: smaller than California, for example and California relies on everything hydro from the Pacific Northwest all the way down to mountain western state coal. In anticipation of hot days the Pacific Northwest actually stops water flow on river dams to allow them to peak at high price points. There is probably a middle point here tho: Europe m…

> Germany has a unified grid, I'm sure.

The article seemed to indicate that this is not the case, and that until the south and north parts of the grid are well-connected domestically, excess power from the north gets routed south via Poland and the Czech Republic.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#33

Theres gunna be big money to the company that can figure out how to store huge masses of energy for months, but no doubt thats decades away. However, is there a more simple solution to this problem, like approaching an industry that already uses masses of energy and seeing if they can encourage them to use the energy when there is overloading? I'm unsure what that industry would be. Surely using an overabundance of e…

There's a great sci-fi novel, The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi, set in a post-oil world where tightly wound springs are used to store energy, as we do now with clocks. One of the subplots deals with a character trying to develop a material that can be wound tighter and more compactly without breaking. Or explosively unwinding. I'm not an engineer or physicist, so I've wondered, what is the theoretical limit for st…

Mechanical storage has safety issues when it's used for transport. Unlike gasoline (in real life, not movies) mechanical storage does tend to release all its energy at once in a crash.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#34
One thing that everybody forget is that with agreement with the main power producers in Germany, the government of Gerhard Schröder (10 years ago) started the plan to built the network to link North Germany to the South for renewable energy production together with the agreed shutdown of the nuclear powerplants in 2020. Once the left/green government was replaced with the current one, the big power producers did a nice lobbying not to shutdown the powerplants and thus delayed the building of the network. But the laws to develop renewable energies (and the subsidies going with) were not changed. Thus, we ended up with a lot of individuals, small and medium companies building small "power plants" with wind and solar energy. A lot was done in the North because of good winds combined with cheap land. End result, power imbalance.

Also, the power network is still very "former East - former West" built, which is not helping. We had 3 years ago a blackout of the West while the East (which includes the part with most of the windmills) was still up.

At the end, the problem is mainly because of the delayed investment from the network operators and they are now affected by their own unwillingness to build the network. From a financial point of view, it is easy to understand because they are mainly coal/gas/nuclear producers and they would have had to build a network which would then be used by their competitors...

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#35
American Superconductors has a rig to help solve these problems, it is expensive (probably more expensive than off-loading the excess to unwilling neighbours) but it works.

http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/amsc/description

From a description I once read (but can't seem to locate right now) these devices store excess power for short periods in superconducting coils to release the power again when the consumption side needs it. That way both the grid and the windfarms are matched better to each others needs and capabilities.

The whole thing is housed in a 40' container.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#36
post #10

They have to shut down coal fired power plants when the windmills produce excess power. Oh, the humanity!

I wouldn't call that a good thing. You generally can't turn off/on a coal plant in a hurry. What they're probably doing is just braking the turbines and still burning some fuel. (Edited, realised it sounded confrontational to begin with.)

Those coal plants will be all gone soon, and replaced with gas turbine plants which you can shut on/off in a hurry.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#37

They have to shut down coal fired power plants when the windmills produce excess power. Oh, the humanity!

You generally leave the baseload (coal + nuclear) on, and shut down "peaking" capacity, which is, at least in the US, mainly natural gas. Coal is more expensive to build, more expensive to turn on, and cheaper to operate. Nat Gas is cheaper to build, cheaper to turn on, and more expensive to operate

I know you're speaking from the power plant's perspective, but factoring in externalities, natural gas is cheaper to operate than coal. Nuclear is really cheaper. Wind is about the same as coal.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#39

Theres gunna be big money to the company that can figure out how to store huge masses of energy for months, but no doubt thats decades away. However, is there a more simple solution to this problem, like approaching an industry that already uses masses of energy and seeing if they can encourage them to use the energy when there is overloading? I'm unsure what that industry would be. Surely using an overabundance of e…

There's a great sci-fi novel, The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi, set in a post-oil world where tightly wound springs are used to store energy, as we do now with clocks. One of the subplots deals with a character trying to develop a material that can be wound tighter and more compactly without breaking. Or explosively unwinding. I'm not an engineer or physicist, so I've wondered, what is the theoretical limit for st…

what is the theoretical limit for storing energy in a spring.

I spring is a material (usually a metal, but could be a plastic as well) that is under stress, typically tension, torsion or compression (depending on type of spring). The limit is basically the yield strength of the material, which is the point where the stress vs strain curve goes nonlinear and the material begins to plastically deform. Obviously the fracture limit represents catastrophic failure of the material, but that is higher than the yield limit.

Basically, it's a material strength and elasticity problem.

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