Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

businessweek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 70 posts

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#21

Post by tvladeck »

silvestrov wrote: post #4

It's like the writer doesn't know that windmills can be stopped. In fact, they have builtin brakes which autoengage and stops the mill when the wind becomes too powerful.

You are correct, but the problem is tuning the production from wind farms to match demand exactly, in real time, which is what is required to operate the grid. When it comes to renewable energy wind is the hardest in this regard, because production can fluctuate rapidly in very short time scales, especially when there's gusting.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#22

Post by DasIch »

Gring wrote: post #5
silvestrov wrote: post #4

It's like the writer doesn't know that windmills can be stopped. In fact, they have builtin brakes which autoengage and stops the mill when the wind becomes too powerful.

Exactly. So the question is, when facing the risk of a black-out, why don't they just stop the windmills? And in the long term, why is Europe not building more Pumped-storage hydroelectric power plants, which would solve the issue? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit... )

You cannot just build more pumped-storage hydroelectric power plants, you need mountains or at least hills, that fit certain parameters and in the places you can build them you will already find them.

Northern Germany probably doesn't have a single such plant but Northern Germany also doesn't have a single mountain, hill or anything higher than a tree as far as the eye can see.

You will find those plants in Southern Germany and Austria but then again they do actually have places to put them.

Besides stopping the windmills or installing plants is not the problem. The problem is that the German grid can't deal with the energy produced in Germany and uses neighboring grids that are not designed to handle that much load.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#23

Post by Danieru »

ck2 wrote: post #6
TamDenholm wrote: post #3

Theres gunna be big money to the company that can figure out how to store huge masses of energy for months, but no doubt thats decades away. However, is there a more simple solution to this problem, like approaching an industry that already uses masses of energy and seeing if they can encourage them to use the energy when there is overloading? I'm unsure what that industry would be. Surely using an overabundance of e…

I think the working theory is heating molten salt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Producing electricity from heat is a high loss operation. Storing heat is only logical when the source energy is heat. This is what wikipedia means by 1% loss per year. Meanwhile kinetic storage has no loss over time. As a bonus converting kinetic energy to electricity is rather efficient. So far Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is our best method for large scale electricity-to-electricity storage.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#24

Post by [deleted] »

Danieru wrote: post #23
ck2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the working theory is heating molten salt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Producing electricity from heat is a high loss operation. Storing heat is only logical when the source energy is heat. This is what wikipedia means by 1% loss per year. Meanwhile kinetic storage has no loss over time. As a bonus converting kinetic energy to electricity is rather efficient. So far Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is our best method for large scale electricity-to-electricity storage.

[deleted]

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#25

Post by DasIch »

The real problem here is that the Europe's and specifically Germany's grid is not designed to handle the huge variations imposed my plants using renewable energy. It was designed with nuclear, coal and gas power plants in mind that create relatively constant and easily predictable amounts of energy.

This hasn't really been a problem before but with real interest and focus on that problem it will surely be solved and will eventually be small footnote as a short term problem we once had on the way to a future in which we will produce energy solely from renewable sources.

The fact that Germany is producing more energy than it knows what to do with is actually good news as it shows that the Energiewende is working.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#26

Post by redwood »

DasIch wrote: post #25

The real problem here is that the Europe's and specifically Germany's grid is not designed to handle the huge variations imposed my plants using renewable energy. It was designed with nuclear, coal and gas power plants in mind that create relatively constant and easily predictable amounts of energy. This hasn't really been a problem before but with real interest and focus on that problem it will surely be solved and…

Right on: this is an exciting opportunity for grid management. A number of transitions will have to occur: movement toward more peaky-capable baseload generation, probably through natural gas turbines, movement toward storage etc.

At the very least it's surprising they aren't pumping water uphill, or just shutting down hydro throughput, in these time periods. Or perhaps Europe's system of hydro electric dams isn't large enough.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#27

Post by jivatmanx »

tvladeck wrote: post #12
ck2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the working theory is heating molten salt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

There are a bunch of competing technologies: flywheels, water pumps, electric arcs, etc. It's a really interesting space.

Also Pneumatic, which is becoming a big one for cars

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#28

Post by DasIch »

redwood wrote: post #26
DasIch wrote: post #25

The real problem here is that the Europe's and specifically Germany's grid is not designed to handle the huge variations imposed my plants using renewable energy. It was designed with nuclear, coal and gas power plants in mind that create relatively constant and easily predictable amounts of energy. This hasn't really been a problem before but with real interest and focus on that problem it will surely be solved and…

Right on: this is an exciting opportunity for grid management. A number of transitions will have to occur: movement toward more peaky-capable baseload generation, probably through natural gas turbines, movement toward storage etc. At the very least it's surprising they aren't pumping water uphill, or just shutting down hydro throughput, in these time periods. Or perhaps Europe's system of hydro electric dams isn't la…

Northern Germany like the Netherlands consists entirely of flat land, so there are no hills to pump water up. Further more such solutions require a river relatively close to the hill that runs with enough water that the pumps have enough work to do and that can easily handle the water when you drain it.

Even so such plants are used in the Middle and South of Germany where hills and mountains exists but you have to get the energy there and Poland is closer.

Re: Windmills Overload East Europe’s Grid, Risking Blackout

#30

Post by redwood »

DasIch wrote: post #28
redwood wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right on: this is an exciting opportunity for grid management. A number of transitions will have to occur: movement toward more peaky-capable baseload generation, probably through natural gas turbines, movement toward storage etc. At the very least it's surprising they aren't pumping water uphill, or just shutting down hydro throughput, in these time periods. Or perhaps Europe's system of hydro electric dams isn't la…

Northern Germany like the Netherlands consists entirely of flat land, so there are no hills to pump water up. Further more such solutions require a river relatively close to the hill that runs with enough water that the pumps have enough work to do and that can easily handle the water when you drain it. Even so such plants are used in the Middle and South of Germany where hills and mountains exists but you have to ge…

Germany has a unified grid, I'm sure. We need to remember how small Germany is: smaller than California, for example and California relies on everything hydro from the Pacific Northwest all the way down to mountain western state coal. In anticipation of hot days the Pacific Northwest actually stops water flow on river dams to allow them to peak at high price points.

There is probably a middle point here tho: Europe may have proportionally less hydro available. In fact it looks like Germany now has more wind capacity than hydro (something no where near achieved in California) so you're right: they might not be able to make it up that way.

Post reply on HN