Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist? • Hacker News Board

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#101

Post by wheels » Fri, Feb 06, 2009, 11:16 PM UTC

Hexstream wrote: post #44

natch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably an atheist without realizing it. I've met many agnostics who weren't aware that there are different types of atheists, including many who don't know one way or another but lean toward disbelief, which is very close to agnosticism. The typical misunderstanding of atheism from self-described agnostics is that atheists claim to be certain that there is no God. Some atheists do that, but that's not the on…

"You're probably an atheist without realizing it." You know, it infuriates me when my theist mother tells my atheist self that I'm probably a theist without realizing it. I won't take any of that "If you're a X, you're probably just a Y without realizing it" nonsense.

I think more to the point is that it's silly to define oneself in terms of the things that they don't believe in. I don't label myself an anti-Olympian because I don't believe in the Athenian gods. Socialists don't call themselves acapitalists. Atheism isn't a belief in something being true, it's a belief in other people being wrong.

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#102

Post by gjm11 » Fri, Feb 06, 2009, 11:30 PM UTC

gjm11 wrote: post #56

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is very strong evidence that there are no (ordinary) elephants in the room That's assuming a closed system open to inspection. The universe is neither of those. I can say what is or isn't in the room because I have total control over and full freedom to inspect the room to the level of detail required to find elephants . Your example simply doesn't translate. You pivot then into the "far away God is the same as…

Your example simply doesn't translate : I wasn't saying "God is just like an elephant", I was saying "Your alleged point of logic, claiming that one cannot have evidence that something doesn't exist, is incorrect". The elephant is a counterexample to it. For what it's worth, though, I think the argument does translate -- for some but not all notions of God. Specifically, as I said before, if you adopt a notion of God…

If whoever downvoted me would care to explain why, I'd be grateful. (Surely not merely for the borked attempt at italics?)

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#103

Post by Hexstream » Fri, Feb 06, 2009, 11:37 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #101

Hexstream wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You're probably an atheist without realizing it." You know, it infuriates me when my theist mother tells my atheist self that I'm probably a theist without realizing it. I won't take any of that "If you're a X, you're probably just a Y without realizing it" nonsense.

I think more to the point is that it's silly to define oneself in terms of the things that they don't believe in. I don't label myself an anti-Olympian because I don't believe in the Athenian gods. Socialists don't call themselves acapitalists. Atheism isn't a belief in something being true, it's a belief in other people being wrong.

"I think more to the point is that it's silly to define oneself in terms of the things that they don't believe in."

Well, I do believe there is no god. And theists define themselves as not believing in the absence of a god. I mean, I think your linguistic objections are pretty disingenious.

"Atheism isn't a belief in something being true, it's a belief in other people being wrong."

I believe it is true that there is no god. And I'm pretty sure theists have a belief that me and the other atheists (and those of religions other than theirs) are wrong.

edit: Didn't capitalize "god" intentionally.

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#104

Post by wheels » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:14 AM UTC

Hexstream wrote: post #103

wheels wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think more to the point is that it's silly to define oneself in terms of the things that they don't believe in. I don't label myself an anti-Olympian because I don't believe in the Athenian gods. Socialists don't call themselves acapitalists. Atheism isn't a belief in something being true, it's a belief in other people being wrong.

"I think more to the point is that it's silly to define oneself in terms of the things that they don't believe in." Well, I do believe there is no god. And theists define themselves as not believing in the absence of a god. I mean, I think your linguistic objections are pretty disingenious. "Atheism isn't a belief in something being true, it's a belief in other people being wrong." I believe it is true that there is…

What about an areductionist? Aplatonist? Afreudian? Arepublican?

I'm not saying that atheism doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's not the same as agnosticism. Agnostic isn't defined in terms of being anti-theist. It just doesn't really believe in the validity of the question.

It's like the classical, "Are you still beating your wife?" An agnostic doesn't think that the question is framed in an answerable way.

Atheism as a term seems to be more popular in the (much more religious than the rest of the west) US where it is perhaps a minority defining itself in terms of the majority. In places where being religious is the exception, rather than the rule, it seems less sensical for those who are not religious to define themselves in terms of not holding a belief that the minority hold.

As for the negations, do you believe that atheism would have a meaning if there were no theism? Or that there's any specific substance to the term atheism, other than (usually actively) rejecting the beliefs of theism?

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#105

Post by jpd » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:17 AM UTC

markup wrote: post #41

natch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably an atheist without realizing it. I've met many agnostics who weren't aware that there are different types of atheists, including many who don't know one way or another but lean toward disbelief, which is very close to agnosticism. The typical misunderstanding of atheism from self-described agnostics is that atheists claim to be certain that there is no God. Some atheists do that, but that's not the on…

I am a strong agnostic... or strongly agnostic, I don't know what's the proper grammatical form. But I DO know strong agnosticism is what sums my own thoughts on god. :-) (I don't get why you've been downmodded to -1, I have just +1'd you)

Is it possible to feel strongly about being unsure?

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#106

Post by cubicle67 » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:37 AM UTC

Let's keep this for Reddit please.

So far HN has been relatively free of OS flamewars. Hopefully we can steer clear of the other two (politics and religion) as well.

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#107

Post by grantmoney » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:46 AM UTC

natch wrote: post #38

markup wrote: post #10

I am agnostic, so I can't vote, apparently.

You're probably an atheist without realizing it. I've met many agnostics who weren't aware that there are different types of atheists, including many who don't know one way or another but lean toward disbelief, which is very close to agnosticism. The typical misunderstanding of atheism from self-described agnostics is that atheists claim to be certain that there is no God. Some atheists do that, but that's not the on…

Wow! Did I just see an Atheist trying to convert an agnostic to Atheism?

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#108

Post by cubicle67 » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:51 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #20

Uh, I'm a "hacker", which is why I read this site. The rest doesn't matter.

Agreed.

I feel so strongly that this doesn't belong on HN, I've done something I vary rarely do. Cast a downvote. Not just one either, but I've downvoted every comment here discussing religion, regardless of their stance. I haven't downvoted those discussing the relevance of this thread on HN though.

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#109

Post by access_denied » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 12:57 AM UTC

jmatt wrote: post #49

davidw wrote: post #20

Uh, I'm a "hacker", which is why I read this site. The rest doesn't matter.

Maybe we need another poll to see how many of the nubs are actually hackers...

I never call myself a hacker, because when I studied ESR's writings I was educated about the fact "that no one is a hacker until another hacker calls him so".

(The antithesis to this attitude is, one word, "lifehacker".)

Re: Poll: Atheist, Deist, Theist?

#110

Post by pg » Sat, Feb 07, 2009, 1:02 AM UTC

natch wrote: post #38

markup wrote: post #10

I am agnostic, so I can't vote, apparently.

You're probably an atheist without realizing it. I've met many agnostics who weren't aware that there are different types of atheists, including many who don't know one way or another but lean toward disbelief, which is very close to agnosticism. The typical misunderstanding of atheism from self-described agnostics is that atheists claim to be certain that there is no God. Some atheists do that, but that's not the on…

Argh. Here it is: the moment the thread turns into an argument about religion.

When this poll was first posted, I worried it would. Then a bit later I saw the number of comments and knew that it had.

What a tar-baby the topic of religion is. A forum just can't seem to touch it any point without dragging in the whole thing.