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GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

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Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#321

Post by palata »

ForHackernews wrote: post #265
palata wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a marketing claim from less secure systems that "privacy is not security, and GrapheneOS focuses on security while we focus on privacy". GrapheneOS does care about both, quite obviously. And GrapheneOS tends to say that if your security is bad, then it is affecting your privacy too. Whereas others say "sure, we break the Android security model by unlocking the bootloader and signing our system wi…

This is only my opinion, but GrapheneOS's approach to privacy seems obtuse to me. They will claim that an unlocked bootloader is a risk, but then turn around and recommend you install proprietary apps GApps in their sandbox. The sandbox doesn't matter if all the private data is in the same sandbox! Reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1200/

Feels like you don't know what "the sandbox" is. It's not "their" sandbox, it's from AOSP.

When you run an app on Android, it runs in a sandbox. Meaning that your social media app cannot access the files of your banking app by default. They are "sandboxed".

On a normal Android, the Play Services are installed as a system app. It is privileged app that has "system" access. A system app is not sandboxed.

GrapheneOS allows you to install the Play Services and the Play Store as "sandboxed" apps in that they run unprivileged, just like WhatsApp or TikTok or your banking app.

So running the proprietary Google apps in the sandbox is obviously more private than running them as system apps, wouldn't you say?

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#323

Post by mentalgear »

zozbot234 wrote: post #110
mentalgear wrote: post #13

This is especially interesting in regard to the recent HN dicussion on spyware by for-profit intel firms having access to Whatsapp, Telegram, Signal, etc. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47033976 ) through OS-level no-click hijacks. I wonder how secure GrapheneOS is in that regard, and what the other contenders are?

It's quite secure against casual attacks, but a proprietary mobile platform has inherent issues wrt. withstanding even mildly sophisticated attackers, including mercenary spyware services. You still have a huge attack surface from all sorts of proprietary firmware blobs and hardware IP blocks that are running directly on the SoC. It's not clear that it's really worth even trying to secure it as opposed to just treati…

Interesting. What are the alternatives to GrapheneOS that you wouldn't consider a "toy" ?

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#324

Post by dotancohen »

Cider9986 wrote: post #304
dotancohen wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few features that I need that I'm not sure if Graphene supports. If you could check that would help! Can you record phone calls? Do third party voice recorders continue recording even when the screen is locked? Thank you!

Yes to both.

Thank you!

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#325

Post by microtonal »

vages wrote: post #119
bergheim wrote: post #105

Been using this for about a year on a p9 pro. It works very well. I hear the google tap to pay does not work, but I've never tried it. However Vipps with their tap to pay works fine. BankID works but not with biometric login, which some things require IIRC. And for some reason DnB private works fine, but you are not allowed in on the corp app. It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you ca…

Thanks for the Norwegian perspective. I agree that the locking down is truly stupid. For what it’s worth, the reasoning for locking down mobile apps is allegedly that mobile users are a less technologically competent demographic than desktop users. I do not think so myself, given the difficulty in trying Graphene vs. Desktop Linux.

I agree that the locking down is truly stupid.

I don't agree that it is stupid. Both banking on a Windows PC or on an unlocked + rooted phone is potentially catastrophic. Windows because of the prevalence of malware, unlocked phones with custom AOSP forks because people download 'ROMs' (as they call them) from the most shady sites.

Once 10,000s of Euros are siphoned from a bank account, it's usually the bank that has to deal with the mess. Especially if they cannot prove the transactions were done in on an insecure platform.

Phones are generally safer (though there is a huge variance between the safety of different Android phones) because they use verified boot and strong application sandboxing.

I think it is possible to believe the following two things a the same time:

- Banking apps should only run on locked phones with secure boot.

- Banking apps should not be limited to the Apple/Google duopoly.

The solution is that there is some validation of alternative OS vendors, e.g. in the form of an audit, and that banks are required to approve apps on their platforms after the audit. This would be fairly straightforward tech-wise, because e.g. GrapheneOS supports remote attestation, but banking apps need to add/allow the hashes of the official boot keys: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#326

Post by gf000 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #259
ramon156 wrote: post #18

Does anyone have a good grasp of the differences between GOS and /e/OS? I'm buying a Fairphone soon and was wondering what both are like

The main difference is that GrapheneOS prioritizes security hardening first and foremost (above usability or compatibility). /e/OS focuses on privacy (i.e. reducing data leakage to adtech) and usability over security. To put it concretely, GrapheneOS recommends running all the proprietary Google apps in a locked "sandbox" so they can't read data on the phone outside the sandbox -- but obviously Google still gets to s…

> but obviously Google still gets to see everything you do in their apps

Well, the actually scary part of google services is that they have this quasi-elevated access in your phone where it can do a lot of stuff ordinary android services just can't do. E.g. google maps' location sharing works this way (but don't quote me on that).

GrapheneOS managed to "put it back into the bottle", and it runs as a regular android service anyone could write, with the same rules applying. So you have much more control on what you allow it, and this will also limit what data apps relying on google services can leak about you.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#327

Post by dangus »

SirMaster wrote: post #316

How does this break free from Google? Isn't the Android that Google themselves writes and maintains the upstream of Graphene? Are they going to disconnect completely from upstream Android or something?

The article directly answers your questions, specifically in the “what is GrapheneOS?” section.

For the end user, breaking free from Google means exiting from Google’s services surveillance system wherever possible. It doesn’t mean complete elimination of the use of source code written by Google employees.

GrapheneOS is really the most private option of all viable daily drivable smartphone operating systems available, because your only other options generally involve Apple and Google services dependency.

You can use GrapheneOS and never send any user information to Google, that’s how you “break free.”

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#328

Post by hydrogen7800 »

ghrl wrote: post #306

"Break free from Google" and buy a Pixel phone from them to do so. But unironically Pixels are currently some of the best actually open phones. They do not lock down or require shady practices for unlocking the bootloader (although they do require a network check once that happens automatically, but it will permanently allow unlocking the bootloader if successful once. Pixels are very easy to restore and almost un-br…

I've wanted to try this on my old Pixel 5, but it has the dreaded screen/motherboard failure. It appears there is no solution for that short of replacing the screen/mobo, which i've already done once after cracking it.

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#329

Post by Tharre »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #266
Tharre wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app. I don't know about Spain specifically, but as far as I understand it no bank in the European Economic Area + UK should allow banking via just the website alone anymore, because of the "Revised Payment Services Directive" (PSD2) regulation. Essentially, banks are required to implement "strong customer authentication", which…

TOTP not accepted? (When will people learn that biometrics are not another factor: they're entirely public and irrevocable. It's not just security theater, but Apple & Google know that this forces you into their ecosystem, which should be illegal. Of course, Brussels is full of rubes anyway.)

The question is what generated that TOTP code. The banks must ensure that they "are independent, in that the breach of one does not compromise the reliability of the others," as article 4(30) states. That text is vague as hell, but published opinion of the European Banking Authority on the matter[0] is:

"a device could be used as evidence of possession, provided that there is a ‘reliable means to confirm possession through the generation or receipt of a dynamic validation element on the device’"

So in essence the TOTP has to be bound to the device in a way that prevents users from just extracting the secret and putting in in their password manager. Hypothetically that would still allow Yubikeys and other security keys that provide attestation from the factory, but in practise banks probably don't want to deal with the support headache and just provide their own, like the TAN generator mentioned by other commentors.

Two other highlights from the interpretation of the EBA:

"App installed on the device" -> not sufficient/compliant

"In the case of an SMS, and as highlighted in Q&A 4039, the possession element ‘would not be the SMS itself, but rather, typically, the SIM-card associated with the respective mobile number’."

"SIM-card associated with the mobile number" - is that even technically possible? Do mobile carriers provide a API for banks to verify that a number still corresponds to the same SIM card? If so I've never heard of it.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20191207213213/https://eba.europ...

Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple

#330

Post by iamgrootali »

shevy-java wrote: post #236
fodmap wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro... Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app. Even sometimes they require to confirm my identity using their app in order to access their website. I have several linux phones but I can only do banking with their…

This should be illegal that the government forces people into apps controlled by private, commercial entities. I call such a government corrupt. Here in central Europe I can still access the bank website fine without smartphone. I need a physical device to yield a TAN though, but I can access and do online transactions fine. So I think something is wrong with the spanish government. People need to protest.

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