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U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

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Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#61

Post by comex »

pacaro wrote: post #59
UnFleshedOne wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would collisions in MD5 really matter in case of legal documents? How would you use it to forge a contract? Take original, make alterations, then add data to the non-visible part of the file until hashes match? Wouldn't that be easy to detect? "What is that 15 Kb of stuff doing there? It is not normally part of pdf that any sane program would write." Or are there some more sophisticated methods?

I can imagine (and therefore we should assume that the attacker can imagine with far more craftiness) several ways of hiding junk in a PDF. E.g. How about in any binary content - embedded fonts, images etc. My big concern is that in this scenario an attacker may have years to create an attack. One small part of designing a security protocol is understanding timeliness constraints.

So just use plain text.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#62

Post by rdl »

shasta wrote: post #24
kfury wrote: post #8

I'm disappointed by all the folks calling mail fraud a 'loophole'. Mail and wire fraud are the ways people prosecute domestic 419 (Nigerian prince) scams and other confidence games. This case shouldn't be given a free pass just because the party intended to be deceived is the judicial system rather than the mail recipient.

Legality of fraud should have nothing to do with whether the mail was used.

It does influence whether there's federal jurisdiction.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#63

Post by tptacek »

shasta wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't, really. The only difference is the venue where it's prosecuted.

It at least affects maximum sentence, right?

Fraud terms vary between states, but you're already looking at 10-15 years for commercial fraud before aggravating factors, from what I can tell (I'm not a lawyer).

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#64

Post by wl »

unreal37 wrote: post #41
leoh wrote: post #5

Did this line strike anyone else as pathetic? In today’s press release, USPIS Inspector-in-Charge Randall C. Till added: “When Mr. Ceglia allegedly decided to take advantage of Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, he underestimated the resolve of the Postal Inspection Service to bring him to justice for illegal use of the U.S. Mail.” Ceglia is probably in the wrong and unethical. But the self-righteousness and pompadour of…

This comment really comes off sounding bad. You don't think a multi-billion fraud was that serious? The people that arrested him are pathetic for being proud of that? Ceglia faked a contract, faked several emails, wasted $100,000's of Facebooks money, wasted $100,000's of the courts time, experts were testifying as to the thickness of the paper and the age of the ink and the staple hole locations... all with the goal…

The acts of forging these documents and attempting a multi-billion dollar fraud are serious. The act of sending these documents through the mail is not. It would have been just as bad if these documents were sent by personal courier.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#65

Post by taylorbuley »

I had dug up his arrest record ~day one -- Not pretty. Interestingly, I had surprised a previous lawyer, who apparently did not do the same before taking on the case.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/velocity/2010/07/28/facebooks-ma...

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#66

Post by smsm42 »

defen wrote: post #23

Perhaps a stupid question, but if this guy had hand-delivered all the documents to the court, he'd be totally in the clear with regard to criminal activity? Why isn't he being charged with providing fabricated evidence to a federal court?

They probably could charge him with a number of offenses, from lying to a federal official to fabricating evidence, and some perjury might probably be involved too. But prosecuting each thing costs money, and more complex and burdensome the case is, more money it would cost - with the same result of getting the guy inside. So if they can get what they want cheaper (saving taxpayer money, court time, etc.) - I say why not? If he hand-delivered everything, I guess they probably would have to choose some other offense or maybe would just let it go if it'd be too hard to prosecute.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#67

Post by smsm42 »

mtgx wrote: post #6
fleitz wrote: post #4

Mail fraud... looks like some AG spent too much time watching "The Firm"

They can arrest people whenever they want with "loopholes" like these, and yet they can't seem to do a damn thing about any of the bankers who helped bring down the economy. Yeah, I just don't buy that.

Well, not whenever they want. If you didn't send fraudulent documents by mail and they wanted to arrest you, they'd have hard time charging you with mail fraud, not?

As for bringing down the economy, if you're going to arrest everybody that participated, you'd need a lot more jails. You'd have to arrest all that took and signed liar's loans, all that took interest-only 40 year loans with no income source to speak of, all that used their HELOCs as ATMs and took luxurious vacations on borrowed cash, all that saw their house double in value in 3 years and decided they are real estate moguls now, etc. etc. Bankers are a fashionable target, but they were not alone in this.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#68

Post by yew »

shasta wrote: post #24
kfury wrote: post #8

I'm disappointed by all the folks calling mail fraud a 'loophole'. Mail and wire fraud are the ways people prosecute domestic 419 (Nigerian prince) scams and other confidence games. This case shouldn't be given a free pass just because the party intended to be deceived is the judicial system rather than the mail recipient.

Legality of fraud should have nothing to do with whether the mail was used.

The idea behind treating mail fraud separately is explicitly that the severity, if not the legality, of fraud should depend on whether or not the mail was involved.

Remember that when mail fraud came into existence as a discrete crime the mail was the primary means of communication for essentially everyone and everything. Tampering with it went beyond deceiving any one person or group of people.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#69

Post by unreal37 »

wl wrote: post #64
unreal37 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment really comes off sounding bad. You don't think a multi-billion fraud was that serious? The people that arrested him are pathetic for being proud of that? Ceglia faked a contract, faked several emails, wasted $100,000's of Facebooks money, wasted $100,000's of the courts time, experts were testifying as to the thickness of the paper and the age of the ink and the staple hole locations... all with the goal…

The acts of forging these documents and attempting a multi-billion dollar fraud are serious. The act of sending these documents through the mail is not. It would have been just as bad if these documents were sent by personal courier.

True, but laws such as mail fraud, tax evasion, and racketeering are designed to be general enough to catch fraudsters and mobsters who can't be prosecuted under a specific law or are too skilled at hiding their crimes.

The famous mob boss Al Capone was only ever convicted of tax evasion and served 11 years in Alcatraz for that.

Re: U.S. Arrests Paul Ceglia for Multi-Billion Dollar Scheme to Defraud Facebook

#70

Post by tomkinstinch »

domainregistry wrote: post #36
grellas wrote: post #21

A few thoughts: 1. When Ceglia first filed his claims, I called it a "lawsuit full of holes [that was] built up by sensationalist reporting into a supposed major threat to Facebook and to Mr. Zuckerberg" and concluded that, "in the courts, this thing is going nowhere." ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1537158 ) My sense of this had nothing to do with any fraudulent tampering with evidence as alleged now in the c…

"and retained the prestigious firm of DLA Piper" What are your thoughts on the pox on DLA Piper's house as a result of taking him on as a client? Doesn't it speak to their naiveté after reviewing the materials he was able to present? Or?

DLA Piper is the world's largest lawfirm (by number of attorneys). They have other things to worry about.
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