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Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

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Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#291

Post by Fogest »

ryandrake wrote: post #277
Fogest wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't think this crime is a big deal, then why do you think this crime would matter if it was in the public record tied to their name? These two ideas you have are not compatible.

I don't think stealing a pack of gum at 14 years old is a big deal, but many people have a huge problem understanding proportionality: To them, it's binary. You're either a criminal or not a criminal, and if this kid's record shows "shoplifter" until he dies, a significant number of people, including employers, will lump him into the "criminal" bucket for the rest of his life.

And what about the kids who get recruited for gang activity and do some pretty messed up stuff as kids? Should that not appear on a public record? This is where the problem lies, you essentially can only ever make it an all or nothing approach as it gets a lot harder to determine what should or shouldn't be apart of a public record. Especially since as you reflected in your comment, this becomes and opinion thing on whether someone thinks it matters or not what crime they did as a kid.

The problem that is happening in most Western countries is that criminal organizations take advantage of the fact that minors get reduced sentenced and that their criminal records are usually kept sealed (unless tried as an adult). Whether it be having them steal cars, partake in organized shoplifting operations, muggings, gang activity, drug dealing, etc...

Your reasoning for why this information shouldn't be public record seems to boil down to the fact that you don't agree with other peoples judgement of someone's past crimes. You'd like to see more forgiveness, and you don't think others will show the same forgiveness, so you want to take away all the access to information because of that. To me that seems like a view from a point of moral superiority.

I'd rather people get access to this information and be able to use their own brains to determine whether they want that person working there. If you were involved in shoplifting at 17 years old, and turn 18, I think it would be very fair for a store owner to be able to use that information to judge you when making a hiring decision. To me it doesn't make sense that you turn a magical age of 18 and suddenly your past poor decisions vanish into a void.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#292

Post by BurningFrog »

wredcoll wrote: post #255
charcircuit wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI should decide if it's still relevant or not. People should fully understand that their actions reflect their character and this should influence them to always do the right thing.

> People should fully understand that their actions reflect their character As if "character" was some kind of immutable attribute you are born with.

It mostly is. People really do have personalities.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#294

Post by retinaros »

pjc50 wrote: post #29
cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

The minister who set this up claims this is a cover up: https://x.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/2021295301017923762 https://xcancel.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/202129530101792376...

Anyone banging on about coverups of crime due to immigrants should get immediately put in the bad faith argument bin, even if they were a Minister.

wake up its 2026 even obama and clinton are saying more or less that now about illegal immigration

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#295

Post by Ajedi32 »

whizzter wrote: post #21
londons_explore wrote: post #6

Something is either public record - in which case it should be on a government website for free, and the AI companies should be free to scrape to their hearts desire... Or it should be sealed for X years and then public record. Where X might be 1 in cases where you don't want to hurt an ongoing investigation, or 100 if it's someone's private affairs. Nothing that goes through the courts should be sealed forever. We s…

Open to research yes. Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks. AI firms have shown themselves to be playing fast and loose with copyrighted works, a teenager shouldn't have their permanent AI profile become "shoplifter" because they did a crime at 15 yo that would otherwise have been expunged after a few years.

If you commit a crime, get caught, and that makes people trust you less in the future, that's just the natural consequences of your own actions.

No, I don't think if you shoplift as a teenager and get caught, charged, and convicted that automatically makes you a shoplifter for the rest of your life, but you also don't just get to wave a magic wand and make everyone forget you did what you did. You need to demonstrate you've changed and rebuild trust through your actions, and it's up to each individual person to decide whether they're convinced your trustworthy, not some government official with a delete button.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#296

Post by madeofpalk »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #281
londons_explore wrote: post #6

Something is either public record - in which case it should be on a government website for free, and the AI companies should be free to scrape to their hearts desire... Or it should be sealed for X years and then public record. Where X might be 1 in cases where you don't want to hurt an ongoing investigation, or 100 if it's someone's private affairs. Nothing that goes through the courts should be sealed forever. We s…

This is a good use case for a blockchain. AI companies can run their own nodes so they're not bashing infra that they don't pay for. Concerned citizens can run their own nodes so they know that the government isn't involved in any 1984-type shenanigans. In the sealed-for-X-years case, the government can publish a hash of the blocks that they intend to publish in X years so that when the time comes, people can prove t…

I like the part where you created a system where if someone has enough resources they can just alter the judicial record.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#297

Post by retinaros »

hackable_sand wrote: post #252
blell wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration policy is one of the most important things people vote for in an election. We need transparent crime data so we can make an informed vote.

Immigration policy has nothing to do with crime

you might want to check sweden open data

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#298

Post by rm30 »

Not long ago, Italian Supreme Court (Cassazione, ord. 34217/2025) established a critical principle reflecting a broader trend in personal data management: the "digital image" of a person must reflect their actual current situation through complete and accurate information. The court rejected deletion but endorsed contextualization, articles must explicitly note the acquittal (assoluzione) or dismissal that concluded the investigation. An article mentioning "investigation for [crime]" without noting "subsequently acquitted" is factually incomplete, therefore false.

This principle applies directly to search engines and data processors. When Courtsdesk was deleted before reaching AI companies, the government recognized the constraint: AI systems can't apply this "completeness" standard. They preserve raw archives without contextual updates. They can't distinguish between "investigato" (under investigation) and "assolto" (aquitted). They can't enforce the court's requirement that information must be "correttamente aggiornata con la notizia dell'esito favorevole" (properly updated to reflect the favorable resolution of the proceedings).

The UK government prevented the structural violation the Cassazione just identified: permanent archival of incomplete truth. This isn't about suppressing information, it's about refusing to embed factually false contexts into systems designed for eternity.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#299

Post by Ajedi32 »

ryandrake wrote: post #176
philipwhiuk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a teenager shouldn't have their permanent AI profile become "shoplifter" because they did a crime at 15 yo that would otherwise have been expunged after a few years. The idea that society is required to forget crime is pretty toxic honestly.

Society does a poor job of assessing the degree of crime. It's too binary for people: You're either a criminal or not. There are too many employers who would look at a 40 year old sitting in front of them applying for a job, search his criminal record, find he stole a candy bar when he was 15, and declare him to be "a criminal" ineligible for employment.

A less incompetent employer would look at the conviction, realize if was for stealing a candy bar 25 years ago, and decide it doesn't matter.

Though if the details of the case were not public or hard to access they might assume it was worse than it was. (Realistically no child would get prosecuted for stealing a candy bar one time, but I'll grant maybe there are other convictions that sound worse without context.) Maybe the problem is actually that the data is not accessible enough, rather than too accessible?

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#300

Post by newsclues »

ahtihn wrote: post #189
newsclues wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you create an incentive for organized crime to recruit youth to commit crimes and not have to suffer the consequences. At a certain point, poorly thought out "protections", turn into a system that protects organized crime, because criminals aren't as stupid as lawmakers, and exploit the system. There is a big difference between making a mistake as a kid that lands you in trouble, and working as a underling for or…

> working as a underling for organized crime to commit robberies, drug deals, and violent crime Have you ever considered that these children are victims of organized crime? That they aren't capable of understanding the consequences of what they're doing and that they're being manipulated by adult criminals? The problem here isn't the lack of long term consequences for kids.

I used to be a drug dealer so I know what is going on and they aren’t victims, they are willing recruits.

12 year olds know it’s not right to sell crack.

The problem is the gap between lack of legal opportunities for youth and the allure of easy money, status and power from being a criminal. Doesn’t help that the media makes it look so fun and cool to be a gangster.

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