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5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

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Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#11

Post by andrewflnr »

chmod775 wrote: post #9

Given need, access to anything that might serve as string, pieces of wood, and too much time to think about the problem, most singular humans will come up with that within the year, if not within days. That thing has probably been independently invented a hundred thousand times over. Trying to figure out who did it first is silly. Also that is not a "sophisticated" tool at all. It's literally one step above hitting r…

> Trying to figure out who did it first is silly.

True. Good thing no one is trying to do that.

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#13

Post by [deleted] »

toolslive wrote: post #2

It's what a lot of engineers have been saying for decades: Looking at the surfaces of the artefacts, it's obvious more advanced tooling, than what was claimed by archaeologists, must have been used. Oh irony, the bits were already lying about in the museum's archive for a century.

[deleted]

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#14

Post by mojomark »

andrewflnr wrote: post #7
MarkusQ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite frustrating how archeology swings over the years from "we'll believe anything" to "we won't accept any claim without a preserved example". While some of the excesses of the past were clearly excessive, drilled holes should have been sufficient evidence of drills, people living on islands should be sufficient evidence of boats, rope-worn bones should be considered evidence of rope and so forth.

Balance would be nice, yes, but I think the conservative approach is closer to correct, especially given the natural human bias toward believing sensational theories.

That's an interesting thought. I wonder if you can quantify this belief? That Weibull (presumably) distribution would be an interesting and useful thing to know.

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#15

Post by FranklinJabar »

toolslive wrote: post #2

It's what a lot of engineers have been saying for decades: Looking at the surfaces of the artefacts, it's obvious more advanced tooling, than what was claimed by archaeologists, must have been used. Oh irony, the bits were already lying about in the museum's archive for a century.

This is true in many, many, many, many places. It takes a significantly higher bar of evidence to put forward specific tooling than an engineer's intuition to make the mark in archaeology.

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#16

Post by FranklinJabar »

MarkusQ wrote: post #6
toolslive wrote: post #2

It's what a lot of engineers have been saying for decades: Looking at the surfaces of the artefacts, it's obvious more advanced tooling, than what was claimed by archaeologists, must have been used. Oh irony, the bits were already lying about in the museum's archive for a century.

Quite frustrating how archeology swings over the years from "we'll believe anything" to "we won't accept any claim without a preserved example". While some of the excesses of the past were clearly excessive, drilled holes should have been sufficient evidence of drills, people living on islands should be sufficient evidence of boats, rope-worn bones should be considered evidence of rope and so forth.

> we'll believe anything

Can you explain what you're referring to? Obviously "ancient aliens" does not count as archaeology, despite your insistence otherwise.

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#17

Post by MarkusQ »

FranklinJabar wrote: post #16
MarkusQ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite frustrating how archeology swings over the years from "we'll believe anything" to "we won't accept any claim without a preserved example". While some of the excesses of the past were clearly excessive, drilled holes should have been sufficient evidence of drills, people living on islands should be sufficient evidence of boats, rope-worn bones should be considered evidence of rope and so forth.

> we'll believe anything Can you explain what you're referring to? Obviously "ancient aliens" does not count as archaeology, despite your insistence otherwise.

The Kamitakamori tools? Piltdown fossils? The pattern roughly seems to be "if you have physical artifacts that support a theory / fit a pattern they will be accepted (even if bogus) but if you have a theory that explains facts (e.g. drilled holes) but no physical artifacts (in this case drills) it will be rejected".

(Just saw the snark about ancient aliens; no idea where that came from. If you're going to try to imply that that's my position you'll need to produce some artifacts to back it up.)

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#18

Post by MarkusQ »

MarkusQ wrote: post #17
FranklinJabar wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we'll believe anything Can you explain what you're referring to? Obviously "ancient aliens" does not count as archaeology, despite your insistence otherwise.

The Kamitakamori tools? Piltdown fossils? The pattern roughly seems to be "if you have physical artifacts that support a theory / fit a pattern they will be accepted (even if bogus) but if you have a theory that explains facts (e.g. drilled holes) but no physical artifacts (in this case drills) it will be rejected". (Just saw the snark about ancient aliens; no idea where that came from. If you're going to try to impl…

And for the record, my grump here is about soft / organic tools and artifacts and coastal / high weathering sites being discounted while everyone falls all over themselves for rocks and bones, even if fake. No aliens, just weavers, sailors, and the like.

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#19

Post by ReptileMan »

chmod775 wrote: post #9

Given need, access to anything that might serve as string, pieces of wood, and too much time to think about the problem, most singular humans will come up with that within the year, if not within days. That thing has probably been independently invented a hundred thousand times over. Trying to figure out who did it first is silly. Also that is not a "sophisticated" tool at all. It's literally one step above hitting r…

But to make a drill bit of highly alloyed copper you need a bit more tools and knowledge

Re: 5,300-year-old 'bow drill' rewrites story of ancient Egyptian tools

#20

Post by andrewflnr »

mojomark wrote: post #14
andrewflnr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balance would be nice, yes, but I think the conservative approach is closer to correct, especially given the natural human bias toward believing sensational theories.

That's an interesting thought. I wonder if you can quantify this belief? That Weibull (presumably) distribution would be an interesting and useful thing to know.

Quantify the belief that humans are biased toward sensationalism? No, I have no idea how to do that. Actually you could make an argument that it's a bit circular, that "sensationalism" is defined as the kind of ideas that humans are biased towards and which are therefore more able to cause a "sensation".

But if you don't see how people yearn to believe in big dramatic things like conspiracies, aliens, bigfoot, or even simple narratives about single people changing the course of history, and how they only accept the complicated and/or boring reality with conscious effort, then, well, you seem to be living in a better universe than I am.

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