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Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

ziglang.org

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Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#111

Post by lukaslalinsky »

hu3 wrote: post #90
lukaslalinsky wrote: post #68

I don't want to be the negative guy, but this is news about two unfinished implementations. There is a lot of work needed for this to be considered done. For example, no networking in the GCD version yet. And as these are being implemented, the interface stops being an interface, the vtable keeps growing, and it's just the current snapshot of what's needed by the std implementations.

They aknowlege that at the beggining of the post? > They are now available to tinker with, by constructing one’s application using std.Io.Evented. They should be considered experimental because there is important followup work to be done before they can be used reliably and robustly: And then they proceed to list 6 important pending work to be done.

It doesn't say "minor" details like networking not being implemented :)

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#112

Post by wiseowise »

BrouteMinou wrote: post #59

I feel like it's worthless to keep up with Zig until they reach 1.0. That thing, right here, is probably going to be rewritten 5 times and what not. If you are actively using Zig (for some reasons?), I guess it's a great news, but for the Grand Majority of the devs in here, it's like an announcement that it's raining in Kuldîga... So m'yeah. I was following Zig for a while, but I just don't think I am going to see a…

> but for the Grand Majority of the devs in here, it's like an announcement that it's raining in Kuldîga...

Lol, I’ll borrow this.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#113

Post by pmarreck »

small_model wrote: post #78

I like Zig, lots of great features that work in unison. However the worry is by the time it reaches v1 Rust will have consumed the space that C/C++ used to. I think it will be a mainstream language though and gain a lot more traction after v1. There is also the issue of will people actually code by then.

That won't happen if there are legitimate reasons why both Mitchell Hashimoto (creator of Ghostty etc.) and Richard Feldman (of Elm fame, creator of Roc-lang) chose Zig over Rust for their work. They both blogged about it

https://tomas-svojanovsky.medium.com/mitchell-hashimoto-go-a...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ5-41u-e7k

https://weeklyrust.substack.com/p/why-roc-is-moving-away-fro...

Perhaps there is room for both... via C FFI interop, of course, lol

(C FFI will probably long outlast C itself...)

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#114

Post by lukaslalinsky »

BrouteMinou wrote: post #59

I feel like it's worthless to keep up with Zig until they reach 1.0. That thing, right here, is probably going to be rewritten 5 times and what not. If you are actively using Zig (for some reasons?), I guess it's a great news, but for the Grand Majority of the devs in here, it's like an announcement that it's raining in Kuldîga... So m'yeah. I was following Zig for a while, but I just don't think I am going to see a…

I really love Zig the language, but I'm distancing myself from the stdlib. I dislike the breakage, but I also started questioning the quality of the code recently. I was working on an alternative I/O framework for Zig over the last months, and I was finding many problems that eventually led to me trying to not depend on stdlib at all. Even on the code announced here, the context switching assembly is wrong, it doesn't mark all necessary registers as clobbered. I mentioned this several times to the guys. The fact that it's still unchanged just shows me lack of testing.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#115

Post by andrepd »

pron wrote: post #96
flohofwoe wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME Zig's breaking changes are quite manageable for a lot of application types since most of the breakage these days happens in the stdlib and not in the language. And if you just want do read and write files, the highlevel file-io interfaces are nearly identical, they just moved to a different namespace and now require a std.Io pointer to be passed in. And tbh, I take a 'living' language any day over a language that…

> I take a 'living' language any day over of a language that's ossified because of strict backward compatibility requirements Maybe you would, but >95% of serious projects wouldn't. The typical lifetime of a codebase intended for a lasting application is over 15 or 20 years (in industrial control or aerospace, where low-level languages are commonly used, codebases typically last for over 30 years), and while such cha…

I would also add that Rust manages this very well. Editions let you do breaking changes without actually breaking any code, since any package (crate) needs to specify the edition it uses. So when in 30 years you're writing code in Rust 2055, you can still import a crate that hasn't been updated since 2015 :)

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#116

Post by pmarreck »

cies wrote: post #81
small_model wrote: post #78

I like Zig, lots of great features that work in unison. However the worry is by the time it reaches v1 Rust will have consumed the space that C/C++ used to. I think it will be a mainstream language though and gain a lot more traction after v1. There is also the issue of will people actually code by then.

I don't think Rust is "a better C/C++". It's a new kind of beast. Interesting, but very different. Zig OTOH is clearly, to me at least (opinion alert), a "better C". It even compiles C! I expect LLMs to be really good at converting C to Zig. > There is also the issue of will people actually code by then. LLMs don't take responsibility. So even if code is generated, a human will have to assess it. I think assessing Zi…

I've been coding in Zig for nearly 2 months straight now.

Or should I say, I've not written a single line of Zig because I've been managing AI's coding in Zig.

Turns out Zig is a fantastic language to "centaur" on. (Reference is to "centaur chess" and which is also sort of becoming a term indicating close code design cooperation with an LLM.)

All of that C code that the LLM trained on ends up helping it work out algorithms in Zig, except that Zig has waaaay more safety guarantees and checks. And is often faster compiled code than the equivalent C, which is astonishing.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#117

Post by PaulRobinson »

pmarreck wrote: post #110
BrouteMinou wrote: post #59

I feel like it's worthless to keep up with Zig until they reach 1.0. That thing, right here, is probably going to be rewritten 5 times and what not. If you are actively using Zig (for some reasons?), I guess it's a great news, but for the Grand Majority of the devs in here, it's like an announcement that it's raining in Kuldîga... So m'yeah. I was following Zig for a while, but I just don't think I am going to see a…

An AI will be able to handle updating your code for 95% of your breaking changes

No it won't.

LLMs are good at dealing with things they've seen before, not at novel things.

When novel things arise, you will either have to burn a shed ton of tokens on "reasoning", hand hold them (so you're doing advanced find and replace in this example, where you have to be incredibly precise and detailed about your language, to the point it might be quicker to just make the changes), or you have to wait until the next trained model that has seen the new pattern emerges, or quite often, all of the above.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#118

Post by metaltyphoon »

pron wrote: post #91
small_model wrote: post #78

I like Zig, lots of great features that work in unison. However the worry is by the time it reaches v1 Rust will have consumed the space that C/C++ used to. I think it will be a mainstream language though and gain a lot more traction after v1. There is also the issue of will people actually code by then.

> the worry is by the time it reaches v1 Rust will have consumed the space that C/C++ used to Given that Rust is quite an old language now and its adoption is still so low, I don't think that should be much of a worry, although that doesn't mean Zig will be the option of choice, and not stabilising is certainly not a good sign. At Rust's adoption rate, a language that hasn't been invented yet and that would show a mo…

> Given that Rust is quite an old language now and its adoption is still so low,

So being part of 3 major OS (Windows, Android and now Linux), the big 3 cloud providers having SDKs for the language, used by so much tooling (js + python) and being part of major internet infrastructure means its “slow” adoption then wow…

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#119

Post by steeve »

BrouteMinou wrote: post #59

I feel like it's worthless to keep up with Zig until they reach 1.0. That thing, right here, is probably going to be rewritten 5 times and what not. If you are actively using Zig (for some reasons?), I guess it's a great news, but for the Grand Majority of the devs in here, it's like an announcement that it's raining in Kuldîga... So m'yeah. I was following Zig for a while, but I just don't think I am going to see a…

we (ZML) have been back to following Zig master since std.Io was introduced. It's not that bad tbh. Also most changes really feel like actual improvements to the language on a day to day basis.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#120

Post by zozbot234 »

andrepd wrote: post #115
pron wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I take a 'living' language any day over of a language that's ossified because of strict backward compatibility requirements Maybe you would, but >95% of serious projects wouldn't. The typical lifetime of a codebase intended for a lasting application is over 15 or 20 years (in industrial control or aerospace, where low-level languages are commonly used, codebases typically last for over 30 years), and while such cha…

I would also add that Rust manages this very well. Editions let you do breaking changes without actually breaking any code, since any package (crate) needs to specify the edition it uses. So when in 30 years you're writing code in Rust 2055, you can still import a crate that hasn't been updated since 2015 :)

Unfortunately editions don't allow breaking changes in the standard library, because Rust codes written in different "editions" must be allowed to interoperate freely even within a single build. The resulting constraint is roughly similar to that of never ever breaking ABI in C++.
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