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The wonder of modern drywall

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Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#181

Post by woodpanel »

ragall wrote: post #111
woodpanel wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German I have to admit we are culturally odd with this. Our houses are way too over constructed and the dry-wall stigma here is just one aspect of it, wood construction stigma is another. It thus is no wonder that Americans have way more affordable housing. Those stigmas are also odd for most of our heritage-like old towns that are full of still-intact "Fachwerk"-Wooden-Constructions - which basically use the sa…

> Our houses are way too over constructed They're not. The long-term reduction in maintenance costs more than make up for it. Tell a German that the "normal" North-American "common sense" is saving 1-2% of the house value every year for repairs and you'll be considered a madman. > and the dry-wall stigma here is just one aspect of it, wood construction stigma is another Both stigmas are very well justified.

Which is ofc complete nonsense.

Wooden structures allow for a lot cheaper adjustment later on (you usually have a few beams that are structurally important, often its just the outer walls that bear the load). If you try that with stone you can start with hiring an expert upfront or your house collapses.

Same goes energy efficiency. The isolation needs require thick plastic-covers on the outside (for stone), which are prone to mold, birds nests and lead to moss. Every residential stone building in Germany that is older than 10yrs provides you with a prime view through its plaster of where its plastic blocks are assembled, because of the moss. If you don't then they already paid the extra cost of recoating.

Every mortgage issuer will calculate 2-4% extra repair costs for the exterior alone. And we'Re not even talking about the venting, which officially requires a replacement and cleansing every 2-3 years, but of course nobody ever does it.

I could go on for hours about our German stonerism, but will end with the most funny thing, which is that most "stoners" are adamant about longevity vis-a-vis wood, pay extra for the stone, have to wait 3-5 times as long before they can actually move in (drying of mortar and screed can take up to year here in Germany) – but then the most important thing for longevity, the roof, will be made of wood ;-)

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#182

Post by woodpanel »

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #96
woodpanel wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German I have to admit we are culturally odd with this. Our houses are way too over constructed and the dry-wall stigma here is just one aspect of it, wood construction stigma is another. It thus is no wonder that Americans have way more affordable housing. Those stigmas are also odd for most of our heritage-like old towns that are full of still-intact "Fachwerk"-Wooden-Constructions - which basically use the sa…

Stein auf Stein, Brick on Brick. It's what makes the German feel safe. It will last forever. I will break everything but the walls if I hit them. I need heavy machinery to put a screw into the wall. It feels right for the German. Wooden houses are for eccentric people with too much money for a disposable house. As much as I don't want to be a stereotypical German thick walls feel right to me. But I honestly don't thi…

I completely agree, I felt the same. It's a cultural thing. But its almost funny once you've broaden your horizon.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#183

Post by lazide »

willis936 wrote: post #169
idiotsecant wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal is expensive, but it's still cheaper than nuke and peaker thermal. If you want power fast and your state and federal government aren't worried about a few pesky environmental regulations you might see coal come back. Part of coals attraction is that it takes a lot of people to run a coal plant, and people need jobs. Those people vote and politicians like votes.

Then you would plunk down a gas turbine like everyone else. It's so much cheaper than coal to operate and uses mostly the same high capex / long-lead machinery. I could see the jobs program angle, but these are shitty jobs. It's not like working in an air conditioned mcdonald's. Workers die in mines a lot and when they don't they live shorter, less comfortable lives with disease. I'm fine with arguing against coal fo…

Gas turbines require infrastructure the may not exist in the area yet, and significant capital outlays.

Like coal mining jobs or the like, if you’re stuck in Appalachia with 5 kids and it’s the only thing keeping you afloat, you’ll get pretty worked up if someone tells you ‘just don’t do that, duh’.

Even if it’s probably correct in a macro sense.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#184

Post by lazide »

ragall wrote: post #102
MisterTea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "wonder" of drywall is entangled with the fossil fuel economy in a way that makes earth-based construction methods look increasingly attractive as that supply chain unwinds. I keep thinking of that scene in Brazil where the hero, Harry Tuttle, opens a modular wall panel in Sam's apartment. We standardized on 16 inch stud spacing here in the US a long time ago when we likely still used cement with a plaster skim…

> You have to break open the wall to fix things The best is to build in such a way as to not have to fix them in the first place. European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Builders add spare empty ones for future expansion, which makes it unnecessary to open the walls in most cases.

Eh, people have a terrible time renovating or adding anything in housing in Europe. A lot of construction doesn’t have those tubes.

It’s hard to articulate how wildly different habits are in Europe vs US around things like ‘what electrical appliances I have’ partially because of this.

Housing tends to be a lot smaller too, largely due to population density differences, but also overall differences in economic earning power and ease of buying things.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#186

Post by CalRobert »

ragall wrote: post #102
MisterTea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "wonder" of drywall is entangled with the fossil fuel economy in a way that makes earth-based construction methods look increasingly attractive as that supply chain unwinds. I keep thinking of that scene in Brazil where the hero, Harry Tuttle, opens a modular wall panel in Sam's apartment. We standardized on 16 inch stud spacing here in the US a long time ago when we likely still used cement with a plaster skim…

> You have to break open the wall to fix things The best is to build in such a way as to not have to fix them in the first place. European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Builders add spare empty ones for future expansion, which makes it unnecessary to open the walls in most cases.

Having owned a couple European houses they’re horrible to alter and mediocre on energy. I miss nice adaptable wood structures. Bizarrely Europeans seem to think their cinderblock homes are nicer…

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#187

Post by retired »

ragall wrote: post #102
MisterTea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "wonder" of drywall is entangled with the fossil fuel economy in a way that makes earth-based construction methods look increasingly attractive as that supply chain unwinds. I keep thinking of that scene in Brazil where the hero, Harry Tuttle, opens a modular wall panel in Sam's apartment. We standardized on 16 inch stud spacing here in the US a long time ago when we likely still used cement with a plaster skim…

> You have to break open the wall to fix things The best is to build in such a way as to not have to fix them in the first place. European standards mandate passing all wiring through corrugated tubes. Builders add spare empty ones for future expansion, which makes it unnecessary to open the walls in most cases.

That means everything in your house is literally set in stone. Sometimes people want to redecorate, have plumbing in a different location or a TV on a different wall.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#188

Post by retired »

stevekemp wrote: post #168
rootusrootus wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be biased, because I live in a city filled with houses over 100 years old, and we get incessant rain. They seem to hold up fine. Not sure how long they’ll last but there hasn’t been any push to replace them.

100 years is nothing! I mean my local pub, for many years, was built in the 17th century. This is probably one of the European vs. American divides though.

I am from The Netherlands. Buildings from 19th century and before are incredibly rare. Maybe 1% of the total housing stock. Thanks to bombings in WWII and a rapidly growing population since.

In my current Spanish town I don't know any building older than 1900. Rapid expansion of coastal towns due to European mobility caused that.

It's not really a European vs American divide, it is more country specific than that.

Edit: Ireland apparently has one of the youngest building age in Europe so I guess a 17th century pub is very rare and special there too.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#189

Post by nkrisc »

ragall wrote: post #140
hedora wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noise barriers are incredibly cheap. They're a tiny fraction of the cost of putting up a drywall or plaster wall. Codes say how far apart the studs should be, so you just buy a roll of batting, and unroll it into the gap between the two walls. You have to cut it to fit, but that's not a big deal. It costs a few thousand bucks to do a whole house (during construction), even in areas with high labor costs. You can usua…

Nobody does it. Not even supposedly "luxury condos". And that's assuming it's really that cheap, which it isn't because to be effective, one needs to stop all sound transmission, not just for walls, but floors too, as well as interrupting the noise transmitted through the house's wooden structure. It's quite expensive.

> one needs to stop all sound transmission

One does not need to stop all sound transmission.

Re: The wonder of modern drywall

#190

Post by throwup238 »

anonymousDan wrote: post #178
jandrewrogers wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concrete or brick buildings are effectively illegal in much of the US because they aren’t safe. Large parts of the US are prone to earthquakes far more severe than any in Europe, a fact learned the hard way. It destroyed all of the prior masonry and brick buildings in the US so that type of construction is no longer allowed. Your choices are pretty much wood-frame or steel-frame construction. That said, plenty of ste…

Very interesting perspective, thanks. One of the other comments mentioned that in Tokyo they heavily use concrete blocks. Not sure how accurate that is but how does their approach differ to the US?

It’s mostly about economics and the construction industry. You can make reinforced concrete houses to California standards but >95% of the industry is geared towards stick frame construction and it’ll be quite a bit more expensive. Commercial and large apartment buildings are often made using concrete, because they can amortize the extra costs (and except for 1x4s, the only other option is steel frame).

Once you start moving out of the dense parts of Tokyo, wood construction becomes a lot more prevalent for the same reason: it’s cheaper to build a stick house to code than it is to hire RC specialists.

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