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Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

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Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#21

Post by yatac42 »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #16
flerchin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, your take away is that Google is the one with the bug here?

My takeaway is there is no bug. My takeaway is that his test email bounced because he didn't have the reputation Viva does. Emails are handled on a reputation basis, this is why we use email service providers like Sendgrid, Mailgun, Postmark, etc.

> My takeaway is that his test email bounced

What test email? I see no mention of a test email in the blog post. The mail that bounced was the one with the verification link from Viva.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#22

Post by jandrese »

flerchin wrote: post #11
that_guy_iain wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Interesting, your take away is that Google is the one with the bug here?

If Gmail rejects emails from your domain it is up to you to fix it. Google is not going to change, and enough of your users will be interacting with people on Gmail that you have to fix it. It doesn't help that Google has been pushing people away from running their own email and into Google's services by ever tightening what it accepts over the years. More than one person has given up on their email server because it was a constant battle with Google, Microsoft, and company to not have important emails disappear into the void.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#23

Post by zokier »

st_goliath wrote: post #9

> Viva.com's outgoing verification emails lack a Message-ID header, a requirement that has been part of the Internet Message Format specification (RFC 5322) since 2008 > ... > `Message-ID` is one of the most basic required headers in email. Section 3.6. of the RFC in question ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.html ) says: +----------------+--------+------------+----------------------------+ | Field | Min | Max…

Also email as a protocol (SMTP) predates RFC5322 by 25 years or so.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#24

Post by amelius »

Gripe only related to email in general: what annoys me to no end is that if my boss forwards me an email and asks me to reply to it (to everybody in the original email) then I have to type in or copy+paste all the addresses from the Fwd attachment (using Fastmail, but this problem exists everywhere). Instead, there should be a button to make that easy.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#25

Post by Juliate »

ale42 wrote: post #13
st_goliath wrote: post #9

> Viva.com's outgoing verification emails lack a Message-ID header, a requirement that has been part of the Internet Message Format specification (RFC 5322) since 2008 > ... > `Message-ID` is one of the most basic required headers in email. Section 3.6. of the RFC in question ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.html ) says: +----------------+--------+------------+----------------------------+ | Field | Min | Max…

The official definition of SHOULD per RFC2119: 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. Not sure how the people at Google interpreted this about the message-id

For producers, ignoring a SHOULD is riskier because it shifts the burden to every consumer.

For consumers, ignoring a SHOULD mostly affects their own robustness.

But here Google seems to understand it as a MUST... maybe the scale of spam is enough to justify it. Users are stuck between two parties that expect the other to behave.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#26

Post by Johnny555 »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #16
flerchin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, your take away is that Google is the one with the bug here?

My takeaway is there is no bug. My takeaway is that his test email bounced because he didn't have the reputation Viva does. Emails are handled on a reputation basis, this is why we use email service providers like Sendgrid, Mailgun, Postmark, etc.

It always amazes me how people can read a blog post like this one that has a clear description of the problem with a log excerpts demonstrating the problem, and then people will confidently make up a completely different scenario that was not mentioned at all and blame the problem on that.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#27

Post by xp84 »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #16
flerchin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, your take away is that Google is the one with the bug here?

My takeaway is there is no bug. My takeaway is that his test email bounced because he didn't have the reputation Viva does. Emails are handled on a reputation basis, this is why we use email service providers like Sendgrid, Mailgun, Postmark, etc.

Yeah. I think email receiving is a game of exceptions… the email receivers (In the business world it’s essentially just MSFT and GOOG of course) answer to the addressees because they are the customer, and those customers will start to shriek if their inbox doesn’t receive “Important Messages.” But GOOG or MS have no leverage over the senders in this case so they just add an exception: “if IP range is just right and message fault ___ is present, fix message” (or otherwise allow)

Of course, they do have leverage over “marketing email” senders since they can block it and no one will complain, so those senders always have impeccable compliance with every year’s new “anti-spam standard.”

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#28

Post by citrin_ru »

ale42 wrote: post #13
st_goliath wrote: post #9

> Viva.com's outgoing verification emails lack a Message-ID header, a requirement that has been part of the Internet Message Format specification (RFC 5322) since 2008 > ... > `Message-ID` is one of the most basic required headers in email. Section 3.6. of the RFC in question ( https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.html ) says: +----------------+--------+------------+----------------------------+ | Field | Min | Max…

The official definition of SHOULD per RFC2119: 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course. Not sure how the people at Google interpreted this about the message-id

You can argue that you not obligated to use message-id but if you don't use it you should blame only yourself that your messages are not accepted. In requiring message-id I would side with google (though in general I think they anti-spam is too aggressive and lacks ways to report false positives). Full RFC compliance (as in not only MUST but also SHOULD unless you have a very good reason) is the easiest part of making sure your emails will be delivered.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#29

Post by kotaKat »

Sudden realization that one of my American banks must be having email problems with this too because I use a Google custom email and recently got an in-app notification from my bank saying "we're unable to email you" (and a letter) yet my email works perfectly fine... switching to consumer gmail worked.

Re: Major European payment processor can't send email to Google Workspace users

#30

Post by fy20 »

amelius wrote: post #24

Gripe only related to email in general: what annoys me to no end is that if my boss forwards me an email and asks me to reply to it (to everybody in the original email) then I have to type in or copy+paste all the addresses from the Fwd attachment (using Fastmail, but this problem exists everywhere). Instead, there should be a button to make that easy.

There's actually nothing that prevents that, if you craft the right headers you can reply to a thread you were not included in, and have it show up as a reply in the thread of common clients (tested Gmail and Outlook).

We added this feature at my $dayjob and I was quite surprised there is no authentication. But thinking about it, this is how mailing lists work (you aren't explicitly specified in "To:") so it makes sense you can do this.

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