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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#431

Post by misja111 »

jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> People seem to think only money has value.

Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread?

What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax payers in return. Because if it would be equal, then one might wonder why they apparently are not able to sell their art for the same amount of money.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#433

Post by pnut »

_heimdall wrote: post #388
BSDobelix wrote: post #372

This is how you kill the idea of basic income, create rifts and factions.

Killing the idea of basic income would be a good thing. It will never work and would leave a society in much the same situation as other past attempts at Marxism.

...and when your labour, and the labour of 90+% of all humans on the planet have no economic value, we'll do what?

Continue to avoid exploring obvious solutions because certain words have been made into epithets, or failed previously because they were solving future (now imminent) problems?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#434

Post by sgt »

carlosjobim wrote: post #404
sgt wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly, I think more should be handed out, to encourage art and culture and let it grow organically. But I guess with the Norske Krone doing so weak and the economy and all...

Nobody is stopping you from handing out stipends to any artist you'd like to support.

This is true, but I was hoping to use OPM.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#435

Post by jmmcd »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #408
BryantD wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but let's not lose track of relative costs. The income program provides €33,800,000 a year (2000 participants, €325 a week, 52 weeks in a year). Double that to account for cost of managing the program -- that seems too high to me, but I want to err on the side of caution for this analysis. Some percentage of that money flows right back into the economy, of course. Meanwhile, ignoring windfall corporate taxe…

This program has nothing going for it. That 33 million could have built, let’s say, 66 houses and housed, let’s say, 264 people (66 families of four) for a generation before needing much in the way of maintenance. But no, fuck the working poor , let’s fund artists. Myopic.

You didn't read the article. The scheme gave positive return on investment.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#436

Post by _heimdall »

pnut wrote: post #433
_heimdall wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Killing the idea of basic income would be a good thing. It will never work and would leave a society in much the same situation as other past attempts at Marxism.

...and when your labour, and the labour of 90+% of all humans on the planet have no economic value, we'll do what? Continue to avoid exploring obvious solutions because certain words have been made into epithets, or failed previously because they were solving future (now imminent) problems?

If we don't fundamentally change our economic system its simple, we're all screwed.

If we have a system depending on trading our labor for money to pay for stuff, and the value of our labor goes to zero, we need a different system.

We can't paper over that fundamental crack by giving governments even more power to decide what every person "needs" and send out resources accordingly.

There are so many problems in that system. How do we actually decide prices when every consumer has the same base level of money to spend? How does the government decide what we all need or deserve? How do we avoid the corruption taking over that massive power granted to dole out resources? Are we just living in a feudal state again? Does the government need to control the means of production to keep such a system stable?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#437

Post by GorbachevyChase »

jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

There really is not an objective criteria to find who is and it’s not an artist. The proposed system makes a purely political decision out of who sits at a desk doing unsatisfying but necessary tasks, and who gets to sit at home and smoke dope all day and put out a painting or a song twice a year. Not very fair to the tax donkey fixing the plumbing.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#438

Post by padjo »

Ekaros wrote: post #318
tgv wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people hardly pay for art, yet many consider it worth keeping the arts alive.

Then those many should spend their own money. And not steal from the rest of society. Maybe they could sing up for say extra 20-50% tax which then get distributed.

Steal from the rest of society? Would you cop yourself on. Governments levy taxes and use that tax money to fund things that they think will benefit society. A la carte funding of the bits you think are worth funding is not a workable proposal. The Irish government funds lots of things I don't agree with but characterising that as theft is ludicrous.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#439

Post by jcarrano »

BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> Society has not disintegrated.

Has art improved in any measure?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#440

Post by Spooky23 »

philipallstar wrote: post #335
pwim wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Money describes a price, not a value. Two different concepts.
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