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Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

nytimes.com

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Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#81

Post by boon »

cubicle67 wrote: post #17

this is where your US infinite detention becomes interesting. Both Obama and Romney support the infinite detention of American citizens without trial, but most people aren't worried as it's "only for the bad guys" What happens when you get on the bad side of the gov, like this guy? Declare someone a Domestic Terrorist and you can lock them away for good. Sure, it almost certainly won't be used in this case but that's…

Spot. On.

When the laws can be used to put anyone in jail for just "annoying" the "civilized and obviously good for you" status quo, you are in big trouble.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#82

Post by boon »

brc wrote: post #39
raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

I am certain that many oil producing nations would be only too happy to exchange their oil for gold.

Two of which did: Iraq and Libya. Iran does too. Notice a pattern here?

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#83

Post by bunderbunder »

I'm not sure I buy the idea that this is as simple as the Federal government wanting to ban all currencies that are not the dollar. I don't buy it because there's still no sign of them trying to crack down on other alternative currencies such as Ithaca Hours. And Ithaca Hours are, I believe, older and more well-established.

It wouldn't be the implication that the alternative currency has a cash value in US dollars, because Ithaca Hours are pegged at $10 per Hour.

I wonder if it's that the Liberty Dollars were issued by a for-profit organization rather than being community organized like other alternative currencies I'm aware of. If I remember right, the "dollar monopoly" was originally enacted in response to the fracas around Civil War tokens. During the war companies had been issuing their own scrip that started to be used as currency in the surrounding communities. There were a number of minor financial catastrophes that happened whenever the issuing company would stop honoring its scrip, thus causing the currency to collapse. And the scrip issuer essentially made off with however much US currency they had received in exchange for the script. So the government decided to ban that as a form of (at the time clearly much-needed) consumer protection.

Anyone who's more knowledgeable about the applicable law and its history who can comment?

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#84

Post by ekianjo »

hristov wrote: post #38
ekianjo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convert your dollars in gold. Wait 10 years. If all goes well you will have gained a good percentage of US dollars once you decide to sell your gold to buy stuff again. It's difficult to predict the future value of Gold, but there's no way a paper money, backed by inflationary FED, is not going to lose value against something as solid as Gold.

There is a way and it has already happened many times. You goldbugs need to learn some history and gain a bit of perspective.

Today USD has no tangible value. A currency, to be efficient, has to be : 1) in limited amount or cannot be produced easily 2) represent high value per space (value density) 3) be exchangeable for tangible goods

The USD has lost on 1) after removing all equivalency to Gold, and we saw that 2) its value has been dropping versus a number of commodities and precious metals over the past 50 years.

I agree the 3) may be challenging if you carry only Gold, but the day the USD will crash, Gold will become a new currency of exchange again. Paper remains paper, and Gold remains gold. It has a value that paper will never have.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#85

Post by bunderbunder »

hristov wrote: post #28
mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

He did not use pure gold or silver. The coins had less gold or silver than their respective face value. By the way, there are gold and silver american coins that are still legal tender. There are many different legal tender gold and silver us coins that have a woman on them and the word liberty and they are often referred to as liberty dollars. One side of his coin is especially similar to a silver coin called the pe…

> He did not use pure gold or silver. The coins had less gold or silver than their respective face value.

Putting in an amount of gold equal to its supposed monetary value would have been a losing business proposition. He'd have been losing money every single time he traded a Liberty dollar for US dollars. If the Liberty dollar is worth exactly the amount of gold that's in it, then the only way he could even break even is if the cost of minting coins were zero. He'd essentially be turning himself into an easy way for currency speculators to avoid brokerage fees, and losing his shirt in the process. (This is assuming he weren't using gold that he had previously stockpiled when it was at a lower price.)

Putting only a little precious metal in the coins is a much better business decision. Having some precious metal in there would be reassuring to members of his target demographic. Having less than the coin's stated value in there means that he had some shot at maintaining control over the market and having a viable business plan.

That, and I suspect that keeping the actual value of gold at arm's length would be an absolute necessity. Just look at what the price of gold was doing over the time that Liberty dollars were being issued. A currency that's constantly strengthening against all others at a double-digit rate is not a currency on which one could base a stable economy. cf.) Dutch disease.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#86

Post by wintersFright »

beagle3 wrote: post #79
wintersFright wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. Agree on your criticism of my loose word of the term saves. I don't agree with your reasons on why people don't buy gold though - most would have no idea what spread is and how it works. From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a m…

> I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. The deeper the response is in the thread, the longer you have to wait from posting until you can reply. > From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a metal that doesn't earn income My grandma kept a stash of gold and jewelry, and…

>>My grandma kept a stash...

Interesting. I've asked my grandma how she saved given she was in the USD=42oz period but her response was we never had enough to save (postwar period really). My mum would rather believe a nobel prize winner rather than me :) As with evertthing, views on these matters depend on ones life experience.

>> impossible to do at the volume I need

Ha! a good problem to have!

>>if trading stopped tomorrow, it could not settle and there would be huge defaults

Exactly right! but if you trade in comex futures then you are still trading in paper - albeit paper gold. When the musical chairs stop then those holding the real physical metal will be ok imho. I don't want to be a christian missionary trying to convert but you may find the concept of freegold and the fofoa blog worth a read. In a nutshell, freegold is about thinking through the transition when the USD/paper gold market collapses and looking at what the giant players (central banks) are doing. If you subscribe to that theory then there are some good arguments why there would be no tax on gold in the future (a black market would arise to ship the gold to any region where it is not taxed). YMMV.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#87

Post by ekianjo »

wintersFright wrote: post #86
beagle3 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. The deeper the response is in the thread, the longer you have to wait from posting until you can reply. > From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a metal that doesn't earn income My grandma kept a stash of gold and jewelry, and…

>>My grandma kept a stash... Interesting. I've asked my grandma how she saved given she was in the USD=42oz period but her response was we never had enough to save (postwar period really). My mum would rather believe a nobel prize winner rather than me :) As with evertthing, views on these matters depend on ones life experience. >> impossible to do at the volume I need Ha! a good problem to have! >>if trading stopped…

Your Mom should listen to the right Nobel Prizes (Hayek) and not the phony ones like Krugman (in the same league as Stiglitz).

Krugman said after the Internet Crash of 2000s: "To fight this recession the Fed needs . . . soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment . . . Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble."

Creating a new housing bubble was certainly GENIUS, and he got a Nobel prize in Economy in 2008 following what happened, while he was at the root of this model of thinking. Nobel Prize in Economy means nothing nowadays. My dog knows more than Krugman.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#88

Post by beagle3 »

wintersFright wrote: post #86
beagle3 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I normally lurk so I don't know why I can't reply to your most recent, so replying here. The deeper the response is in the thread, the longer you have to wait from posting until you can reply. > From my experience of trying to convince my friends and family to save something in gold - they just find the idea totally foreign of buying a metal that doesn't earn income My grandma kept a stash of gold and jewelry, and…

>>My grandma kept a stash... Interesting. I've asked my grandma how she saved given she was in the USD=42oz period but her response was we never had enough to save (postwar period really). My mum would rather believe a nobel prize winner rather than me :) As with evertthing, views on these matters depend on ones life experience. >> impossible to do at the volume I need Ha! a good problem to have! >>if trading stopped…

> Exactly right! but if you trade in comex futures then you are still trading in paper - albeit paper gold.

I'm not trading gold. I wrote "non bubble futures" (which includes gold - it's definitely not a bubble), but what I wanted to write was "non fictional futures" (gold and silver are fictional in the sense they cannot be settled). Many other commodities actually have a chance to settle most of the open interest should trading stop tomorrow.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#89

Post by wintersFright »

ekianjo wrote: post #87
wintersFright wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>My grandma kept a stash... Interesting. I've asked my grandma how she saved given she was in the USD=42oz period but her response was we never had enough to save (postwar period really). My mum would rather believe a nobel prize winner rather than me :) As with evertthing, views on these matters depend on ones life experience. >> impossible to do at the volume I need Ha! a good problem to have! >>if trading stopped…

Your Mom should listen to the right Nobel Prizes (Hayek) and not the phony ones like Krugman (in the same league as Stiglitz). Krugman said after the Internet Crash of 2000s: "To fight this recession the Fed needs . . . soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment . . . Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble." Creating a new housing bubble was certainly GENIU…

totally agree

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#90

Post by wintersFright »

beagle3 wrote: post #88
wintersFright wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>My grandma kept a stash... Interesting. I've asked my grandma how she saved given she was in the USD=42oz period but her response was we never had enough to save (postwar period really). My mum would rather believe a nobel prize winner rather than me :) As with evertthing, views on these matters depend on ones life experience. >> impossible to do at the volume I need Ha! a good problem to have! >>if trading stopped…

> Exactly right! but if you trade in comex futures then you are still trading in paper - albeit paper gold. I'm not trading gold. I wrote "non bubble futures" (which includes gold - it's definitely not a bubble), but what I wanted to write was "non fictional futures" (gold and silver are fictional in the sense they cannot be settled). Many other commodities actually have a chance to settle most of the open interest s…

right - got you.
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