Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey • Hacker News Board

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#51

Post by iand » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 9:58 AM UTC

bitops wrote: post #21

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime. His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop y…

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

Here's why I downvoted you:

>This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache.

You think governments should crackdown on and seek to imprison people because they engage in activities that cause logistical problems for the government? And you think this is one of the few times that a government should intervene? Seriously?

> It would definitely have political and social implications. This sentence is empty of information. Every action has an implication. I would have upvoted you if you'd described what kind of implications rather than implying that having "implications" is something that governments should intervene in.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#52

Post by mjwalshe » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 9:59 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #13

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

Convert your dollars in gold. Wait 10 years. If all goes well you will have gained a good percentage of US dollars once you decide to sell your gold to buy stuff again. It's difficult to predict the future value of Gold, but there's no way a paper money, backed by inflationary FED, is not going to lose value against something as solid as Gold.

Unless the price of gold drops which it has done in the past

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#53

Post by bitops » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:00 AM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #44

bitops wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[original comment redacted] > that makes it unclear who the victim of this crime really is. Ah, okay - sorry, I missed this. There isn't really "a victim" here per se; it'd be hard to point at a person and say that they were hurt by what this guy was doing. Rather, it's a crime because it has the potential to destabilize the rules of how our financial system works. And, by implication, how our political system works.…

[response to redacted comment] OK: You make an 8 gram silver coin and call it a "One Liberty Dollar". It will cost you $256 in silver alone. You then trick a bank into accepting it, so they deposit it into your account with a value of $1. The coin isn't a real US dollar, so you're guilty of counterfeiting currency. In reality, however, you've lost significantly more than you've gained, and the bank should be able to…

> It's clearly criminal to pass off something that isn't a real coin as a real coin, and the you should be punished for that. But it seems logical to me that charges of conspiracy and terrorism should be weighed against the fact that any conspiracy certainly wasn't to your financial benefit - as counterfeiting conspiracies very much tend to be.

I agree that the government's choice of language was extremely poor and wrong-headed. They certainly didn't do anyone any favors by just labeling the guy a terrorist and saying that's it.

I don't think it matters whether or not you lost money on going through with the act. If you want to throw your hard-earned money away to make a point, I suppose that's a privilege.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#54

Post by mseebach » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:00 AM UTC

bluedanieru wrote: post #36

mseebach wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, show me anyone who will consistently convert big macs to US dollars, and I will happily show you the division button on your calculator. In case you need it spelled out, there is, and has always been, a liquid market for the conversion of gold into US dollars. There isn't one for converting Big Macs into anything. They're worthless for trading the second they cross the counter at McDonald's. For someone lashing…

As already noted, I was referring to the Big Mac index. Continue playing at economics though, sorry for interrupting.

In that case it wasn't a honest question. Continue trolling, sorry for interrupting.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#55

Post by brc » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:01 AM UTC

bitops wrote: post #40

brc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

> In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. You need to back this argument up with a good reference. [EDIT: multiple currencies in the same country. Argentina is a beautiful country but it has had some severe issues over the years. You need to have one currency before you can do things like local currencies. URVs in Brazil were a genius way of pulling this off.]

Many places have more than one official currency. Many more have more than one unofficial currency. The USD is unofficially used as a currency in many, many countries around the world, as an adjunct to the local currency.

In the days before the Euro, it was quite common for places to accept multiple currencies in the one location, especially in border areas or smaller countries with lower floats.

It's not such a big deal. Just about every international traveller works in two currencies by converting the 'away' currency into their 'home' currency in their head with each purchase. I have actually been offered the opportunity to pay with my home currency on visa POS machines while travelling.

There are undoubtedly efficiencies to having a central currency, but when the central government is systematically destroying the unit of value, inefficiency of multiple currencies is a very small price to pay for being able to escape that. That's why Zimbabwe has the highest number of currencies on the list that was linked above [Edit: position is relative, the list that ianb linked]

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#56

Post by bitops » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:02 AM UTC

iand wrote: post #51

bitops wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

Here's why I downvoted you: >This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. You think governments should crackdown on and seek to imprison people because they engage in activities that cause logistical problems for the government? And you think this is one of the few times that a gover…

> You think governments should crackdown on and seek to imprison people because they engage in activities that cause logistical problems for the government? And you think this is one of the few times that a government should intervene? Seriously?

Yes, 100%.

> Every action has an implication. I would have upvoted you if you'd described what kind of implications rather than implying that having "implications" is something that governments should intervene in.

Fair point, I upvoted you for it.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#57

Post by hristov » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:03 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #33

bitops wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

If that was the case, than the last thing this person would want to do is make his currency similar to a dollar. Because the US dollar is the weaker currency you see. Why would he then call his currency the liberty dollar, use dollar signs on it, use designs similar to US coinage, etc. Why would he want to be so similar to the weak currency?

The truth is that the US dollar is the strong currency and his one the weak; and he basically made money by having his coins confused for US dollars.

By the way, there are alternative money (such as bitcoin) that are actually honest about being an alternative. The government has not gone after bitcoin yet.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#58

Post by jonasvp » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:04 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #33

bitops wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

This is a misunderstanding of Gresham's law which only applies for multiple currencies that are nominally of the same value. Meaning, if there is a $1 silver coin and $1 gold coin, everybody would be hoarding the gold coin and "getting rid of" the silver coin.

Also, a currency is not something you hoard, it's something you "get rid of" by giving it to someone else in return for goods and services. In your example, the "weak" currency would become the standard medium of exchange, while the "strong" currency would for all practical purposes disappear from circulation.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#59

Post by iand » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:06 AM UTC

bitops wrote: post #56

iand wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why I downvoted you: >This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. You think governments should crackdown on and seek to imprison people because they engage in activities that cause logistical problems for the government? And you think this is one of the few times that a gover…

> You think governments should crackdown on and seek to imprison people because they engage in activities that cause logistical problems for the government? And you think this is one of the few times that a government should intervene? Seriously? Yes, 100%. > Every action has an implication. I would have upvoted you if you'd described what kind of implications rather than implying that having "implications" is someth…

>Yes, 100%.

Such absolute certainty is nice to have.

So if I organize a nationwide fun-run where people in every city are encouraged to run a mile for charity you believe the government should seek to imprison me for causing a logistical problem?

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#60

Post by brc » Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 10:07 AM UTC

hristov wrote: post #57

brc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

If that was the case, than the last thing this person would want to do is make his currency similar to a dollar. Because the US dollar is the weaker currency you see. Why would he then call his currency the liberty dollar, use dollar signs on it, use designs similar to US coinage, etc. Why would he want to be so similar to the weak currency? The truth is that the US dollar is the strong currency and his one the weak;…

I agree that this guys competing currency is odd. It seems to be more of a political statement to me, than a genuine currency. If he had called it something else and convinced people to use it, then I wouldn't see the problem.

If he had just minted gold and silver coins with a stamped weight on them, then they would stand a chance of being actively traded. But then maybe he knew they would be hoarded. To be honest, I don't know the ambitions of an aging hippie with links to the 'bunker' movement.

From what I have read on this case (and I haven't read much) the coins do actually contain precious metals as a backstop to their value. Not so the US currency - although I hear the nickel now has a higher metal content than the face value.