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Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

nytimes.com

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Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#41

Post by raverbashing »

wintersFright wrote: post #23
raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

"you still need US dollars to buy oil" well as long as the oil producers are happy exchanging the world's economic lifeblood for paper IOU's which Ben Bernanke is devalueing as fast as he can. I wouldn't bet the current situation will continue much longer.

"as long as the oil producers are happy exchanging the world's economic lifeblood for paper IOU"

You can be sure they're still happy, especially producers like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (and Canada, of course)

Can they replace it? Sure, but there may be collateral effects, the harshest ones including 'Democracy delivery missiles' to said country.

"which Ben Bernanke is devalueing as fast as he can"

No problem! Barrel of oil yesterday was $X today it's $X+Y

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#42

Post by hristov »

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #2

This article, and the concept of Liberty Dollar are interesting to compare with BitCoin. Whereas the head of the created currency is looking at hard prison time (20 yrs), there is no real one entity involved in BTC. My next question: will BTC be popular or threatening enough that the US treasury take hold and launch lawsuits on counterfeiting as they did in the Liberty Dollar case? And if so, how might they go about…

Bitcoin is clearly not a counterfit. It is not at all similar to us currency. I doubt any us attorney will even launch a suit against bitcoin. They only file suits they are pretty sure they can win. So bitcoin is very different than the liberty dollar in this respect.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#44

Post by mseebach »

bitops wrote: post #32
mseebach wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I get they're not the same thing, that's why I stated that it's dumb they've been issuing coins that resemble dollars. But it would appear that the counterfeit coins are actually worth more than the real coins - that's usually not the point of counterfeiting, and that makes it unclear who the victim of this crime really is.

[original comment redacted] > that makes it unclear who the victim of this crime really is. Ah, okay - sorry, I missed this. There isn't really "a victim" here per se; it'd be hard to point at a person and say that they were hurt by what this guy was doing. Rather, it's a crime because it has the potential to destabilize the rules of how our financial system works. And, by implication, how our political system works.…

[response to redacted comment]

OK:

You make an 8 gram silver coin and call it a "One Liberty Dollar". It will cost you $256 in silver alone.

You then trick a bank into accepting it, so they deposit it into your account with a value of $1.

The coin isn't a real US dollar, so you're guilty of counterfeiting currency. In reality, however, you've lost significantly more than you've gained, and the bank should be able to recover most of the lost dollar by selling the silver.

It's clearly criminal to pass off something that isn't a real coin as a real coin, and the you should be punished for that. But it seems logical to me that charges of conspiracy and terrorism should be weighed against the fact that any conspiracy certainly wasn't to your financial benefit - as counterfeiting conspiracies very much tend to be.

Other comments have suggested that the coins were indeed worth less than they were accepted for, so that makes it more clear cut. I still think the quoted paragraph is poorly phrased - it would have made sense to include that very simple fact.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#45

Post by iand »

bitops wrote: post #40
brc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

> In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. You need to back this argument up with a good reference. [EDIT: multiple currencies in the same country. Argentina is a beautiful country but it has had some severe issues over the years. You need to have one currency before you can do things like local currencies. URVs in Brazil were a genius way of pulling this off.]

30 seconds on google would have turned up this for you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_circulating_currencies...

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#46

Post by davvid »

mseebach wrote: post #15
netcan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole "you need US dollar to buy oil" is a silly argument. You need US dollars to buy ipods too. Luckily money is fungible.

It's also wrong. Yes, the spot markets are priced in dollars, but for an example, almost the entire Saudi production is sold directly to large clients. I'm sure they'd be happy to negotiate settlement in whatever currency or commodity they can use.

Iraq converted its petro trading to the Euro back in 2000, but that didn't last too long and is one of the reasons the US invaded, or so the story goes. This is the gist of a theory called "petrodollar warfare"[1].

Saudi Arabia is an ally hence they trade in dollars; there was quite a stir the last time there was a rumor related to them dumping the dollar[2]. I don't think them switching to another currency is quite that easy.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare#Political_e...

[2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1218458/Dollar-rema...

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#47

Post by benreesman »

bitops wrote: post #40
brc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

> In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. You need to back this argument up with a good reference. [EDIT: multiple currencies in the same country. Argentina is a beautiful country but it has had some severe issues over the years. You need to have one currency before you can do things like local currencies. URVs in Brazil were a genius way of pulling this off.]

Second hand, but friends who have recently returned from Argentina described it in precisely these terms. Your mileage may vary (haven't been myself).

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#48

Post by bitops »

treerock wrote: post #29
bitops wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

America already has multiple currencies[1] without it being a problem. This guys has been convicted of counterfeiting legal tender. Why would anyone take a gold coin worth $10 say, and try to pass it off as a normal dollar? They are losing money. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies_in...

This is a bit of a straw man - these are either all financial products or local currencies.

The point is that they all convert into dollars and I will certainly never use BerkShares for as long as I live. I only take US dollars.

Also, the banking structure around these things is really inconvenient. I worked a short stint as a teller at Bank of America and never once have I seen anything but greenbacks. This was in Santa Cruz county as well, where people would definitely be willing to try such crazy ideas.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#49

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #22
cubicle67 wrote: post #17

this is where your US infinite detention becomes interesting. Both Obama and Romney support the infinite detention of American citizens without trial, but most people aren't worried as it's "only for the bad guys" What happens when you get on the bad side of the gov, like this guy? Declare someone a Domestic Terrorist and you can lock them away for good. Sure, it almost certainly won't be used in this case but that's…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#50

Post by mseebach »

bitops wrote: post #40
brc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very weak argument. In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. It's only a problem for the weak currency, which according to Greshams Law, everyone tries to get rid of, while hoarding the stronger currency. The reason the government doesn't want competition in the currency business is because they like to weaken their currency. The government currency would be discarded q…

> In many places around the world, several currencies exist and are used simultaneously. You need to back this argument up with a good reference. [EDIT: multiple currencies in the same country. Argentina is a beautiful country but it has had some severe issues over the years. You need to have one currency before you can do things like local currencies. URVs in Brazil were a genius way of pulling this off.]

So there's cause and effect: Are countries unstable because they have multiple currencies, or are people using multiple currencies because the country is unstable.

You seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to be arguing for the former, "gold bugs" will generally argue the latter.

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