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Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

nytimes.com

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Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#21

Post by bitops »

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #16
mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime. His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop y…

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications.

[EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#22

Post by [deleted] »

cubicle67 wrote: post #17

this is where your US infinite detention becomes interesting. Both Obama and Romney support the infinite detention of American citizens without trial, but most people aren't worried as it's "only for the bad guys" What happens when you get on the bad side of the gov, like this guy? Declare someone a Domestic Terrorist and you can lock them away for good. Sure, it almost certainly won't be used in this case but that's…

[deleted]

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#23

Post by wintersFright »

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

"you still need US dollars to buy oil" well as long as the oil producers are happy exchanging the world's economic lifeblood for paper IOU's which Ben Bernanke is devalueing as fast as he can. I wouldn't bet the current situation will continue much longer.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#24

Post by bitops »

bluedanieru wrote: post #10
bluedanieru wrote: post #4

Whatever asshole compared this guy to Rosa Parks needs to get some perspective.

Downvoted, eh? Yeah I suppose we can compare the struggle of an entire race to break free from systemic and institutional oppression and exploitation, to a bunch of illiterate college students playing at economics.

The issue here is the tone, not the content.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#25

Post by wseymour »

bitops wrote: post #21
TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime. His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop y…

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

How so? Are currency exchanges between nations particularly arduous right now? Determine an exchange rate, multiply by it, and you're done.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#26

Post by mseebach »

bitops wrote: post #21
TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime. His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop y…

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

The logistics aren't different from accepting payment with any one of a dozen different credit cards (each of which might be settled in literally hundreds of currencies) or cheques. Or bartering.

Yes, it would have political implications because politicians can't devalue the loans they've made abroad by devaluing the currency, effectively (but opaquely) taxing savings. I'm not sure what social implications it would have?

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#27

Post by wintersFright »

mseebach wrote: post #14
bluedanieru wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Big Macs for a barrel? Honest question.

Sure, show me anyone who will consistently convert big macs to US dollars, and I will happily show you the division button on your calculator. In case you need it spelled out, there is, and has always been, a liquid market for the conversion of gold into US dollars. There isn't one for converting Big Macs into anything. They're worthless for trading the second they cross the counter at McDonald's. For someone lashing…

He is referring to the Big Mac Index - a measure of purchasing power parity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#28

Post by hristov »

mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

He did not use pure gold or silver. The coins had less gold or silver than their respective face value.

By the way, there are gold and silver american coins that are still legal tender. There are many different legal tender gold and silver us coins that have a woman on them and the word liberty and they are often referred to as liberty dollars.

One side of his coin is especially similar to a silver coin called the peace dollar (but also often referred to as the liberty dollar).

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#29

Post by treerock »

bitops wrote: post #21
TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime. His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop y…

This is one of the few times I'd ever say that government crackdown is a good thing. One country having multiple currencies at the same time could become a big logistical headache. It would definitely have political and social implications. [EDIT: I welcome downvotes on comments that are not constructive. If you think this is totally off the wall, please give a good explanation why.]

America already has multiple currencies[1] without it being a problem. This guys has been convicted of counterfeiting legal tender.

Why would anyone take a gold coin worth $10 say, and try to pass it off as a normal dollar? They are losing money.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies_in...

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#30

Post by mseebach »

bitops wrote: post #19
mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

> But if they're made from gold and silver, wouldn't they be more valuable than the coins they were confused with? Sort of, but not really. The issue here is mixing the ideas of "a dollar" with "a piece of gold worth a dollar" or "a piece of silver worth a dollar". They are not the same thing. There's an abstract notion of 'Value: $1.00' that both a piece of paper and a piece of gold links up to. Hopefully that is a…

No, I get they're not the same thing, that's why I stated that it's dumb they've been issuing coins that resemble dollars. But it would appear that the counterfeit coins are actually worth more than the real coins - that's usually not the point of counterfeiting, and that makes it unclear who the victim of this crime really is.
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