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Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

nytimes.com

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Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#11

Post by bluedanieru »

mseebach wrote: post #8
raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

> Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. Good thing, then, that gold is very easy to convert into US dollars. "the fluctuating value of the dollar makes it very hard to gauge whether oil prices themselves are rising or falling… Oil today at 2 grams, is about the same as it was in the early 1950s; but if you measure the price in US dollars, you would get the impression that it is about 30 times more expensive…

How many Big Macs for a barrel? Honest question.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#12

Post by mseebach »

This bit confuses me:

At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20.

They may be similar to US coin, which is, if nothing else, dumb. But if they're made from gold and silver, wouldn't they be more valuable than the coins they were confused with? Is that not solid proof against mens rea? Gold is $55/g, silver is $32/g. A US dollar coin is 8.1g, a quarter 5.6g.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#13

Post by ekianjo »

raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

Convert your dollars in gold. Wait 10 years. If all goes well you will have gained a good percentage of US dollars once you decide to sell your gold to buy stuff again. It's difficult to predict the future value of Gold, but there's no way a paper money, backed by inflationary FED, is not going to lose value against something as solid as Gold.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#14

Post by mseebach »

bluedanieru wrote: post #11
mseebach wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. Good thing, then, that gold is very easy to convert into US dollars. "the fluctuating value of the dollar makes it very hard to gauge whether oil prices themselves are rising or falling… Oil today at 2 grams, is about the same as it was in the early 1950s; but if you measure the price in US dollars, you would get the impression that it is about 30 times more expensive…

How many Big Macs for a barrel? Honest question.

Sure, show me anyone who will consistently convert big macs to US dollars, and I will happily show you the division button on your calculator.

In case you need it spelled out, there is, and has always been, a liquid market for the conversion of gold into US dollars. There isn't one for converting Big Macs into anything. They're worthless for trading the second they cross the counter at McDonald's.

For someone lashing out at "illiterate college students playing at economics", you're not exactly showing off your deep insight.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#15

Post by mseebach »

netcan wrote: post #9
raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

This whole "you need US dollar to buy oil" is a silly argument. You need US dollars to buy ipods too. Luckily money is fungible.

It's also wrong. Yes, the spot markets are priced in dollars, but for an example, almost the entire Saudi production is sold directly to large clients. I'm sure they'd be happy to negotiate settlement in whatever currency or commodity they can use.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#16

Post by TheAmazingIdiot »

mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

After doing a tiny bit of research (google and wikipedia), it seems mens rea does not apply if said crime is considered a strict liability crime. Examples are selling alcohol to underage, or statutory rape. Counterfeiting is another strict liability crime.

His real crime is, of course, competing with the government. You will lose, unless you take up arms. The government has no problems using excessive force to stop you.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#17

Post by cubicle67 »

this is where your US infinite detention becomes interesting. Both Obama and Romney support the infinite detention of American citizens without trial, but most people aren't worried as it's "only for the bad guys"

What happens when you get on the bad side of the gov, like this guy? Declare someone a Domestic Terrorist and you can lock them away for good. Sure, it almost certainly won't be used in this case but that's not the point; the option shouldn't event exist

anyway, good on the guy. Rosa Parks hyperbole aside, what's the problem with people trading in gold coins if they like? more power to them

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#18

Post by beagle3 »

ekianjo wrote: post #13
raverbashing wrote: post #3

Gold backed currency is overrated If you disagree with me you can go and convert your savings into gold (but you are probably doing it already) Remember, you still need US dollars to buy oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

Convert your dollars in gold. Wait 10 years. If all goes well you will have gained a good percentage of US dollars once you decide to sell your gold to buy stuff again. It's difficult to predict the future value of Gold, but there's no way a paper money, backed by inflationary FED, is not going to lose value against something as solid as Gold.

Funny! You think you can win the game!

Well, first of all, gold can be confiscated from you. It happened in the 30s, it can happen again.

Second, unless you are very well equipped and knowledgeable, it is not easy to buy gold - you may buy a bar, but it might be tungsten, with increasing probability as time passes (and I wouldn't be surprised if the probability is already non-negligible; most trade does not go to great length to verify real goldness).

And third - if you managed to hold on to real gold,, in 10 years, you would have gained a good percentage of US dollars when you convert it -- and the tax man will be waiting to take 35% (federal) + 13% (state, if you live in NYC) off your profit. (Capital gain taxes are very low at 15% - don't expect them to stay that way for commodities, perhaps not even for job-generating investments)

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#19

Post by bitops »

mseebach wrote: post #12

This bit confuses me: At his federal trial, witnesses testified to the Liberty Dollar’s criminal similitude to standard American coins. They said his coins included images of Lady Liberty and cheekily reversed “In God We Trust” to “Trust in God.” Then again, his coins were made of real gold and silver, as American coins are not, and came in different sizes and unusual denominations of $10 and $20. They may be similar…

> But if they're made from gold and silver, wouldn't they be more valuable than the coins they were confused with?

Sort of, but not really. The issue here is mixing the ideas of "a dollar" with "a piece of gold worth a dollar" or "a piece of silver worth a dollar". They are not the same thing.

There's an abstract notion of 'Value: $1.00' that both a piece of paper and a piece of gold links up to.

Hopefully that is a clear explanation.

Re: Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey

#20

Post by wintersFright »

beagle3 wrote: post #18
ekianjo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convert your dollars in gold. Wait 10 years. If all goes well you will have gained a good percentage of US dollars once you decide to sell your gold to buy stuff again. It's difficult to predict the future value of Gold, but there's no way a paper money, backed by inflationary FED, is not going to lose value against something as solid as Gold.

Funny! You think you can win the game! Well, first of all, gold can be confiscated from you. It happened in the 30s, it can happen again. Second, unless you are very well equipped and knowledgeable, it is not easy to buy gold - you may buy a bar, but it might be tungsten, with increasing probability as time passes (and I wouldn't be surprised if the probability is already non-negligible; most trade does not go to gre…

1) In the 30's more people owned gold. Now people are dishoarding gold (cash4gold). Going after gold hoarders won't yield much. Also no one in the 30's went to jail.

2) Coins from a reputable mint are pretty easy. The tungsten forgeries are only cost effective for the bigger bars

3) If you purchase coins then they can be redeemed for the currency of the day at under the radar levels. I don't see why I should pay tax when trying to preserve purchasing power of my savings.

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