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Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

europeanbusinessmagazine.com

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Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#521

Post by digiown »

ignoramous wrote: post #454
digiown wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> important security measure It's a security measure against the owner of the device , in other words, an attack. Would you be okay with me using a remote control to forcibly slow down your car so I can merge? Using attestation this way is fundamentally incompatible with ownership. If the bank wants some assurance about a device, they need to sell or issue one to me, like credit cards or point of sale machines, which…

> If the bank wants some assurance about a device, they need to sell or issue one to me, like credit cards or point of sale machines, which are explicitly not your property. In this example, a banking app is not making the entire Android device non functional when it refuses to work when remote attestation like Play Integrity fails.

It is colluding with a third party to increase their power. What devices pass Play Integrity? Yeah, the same ones with all the telemetry and spying that you can't remove. I thought the government is supposed to protect consumer rights, not to tilt the playing field even further.

Like I said, I'd be fine if they offer a viable alternative, like a card or a physical authentication dongle (which doesn't require spyware to use).

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#522

Post by digiown »

ignoramous wrote: post #470
xyzzy123 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work on mobile apps you will notice that full attestation is too slow to put in the login path. [This might be better than it used to be, now in 2026]. I don't think a good security engineer would rely on atty as "front line" anti brute force control since bypasses are not that rare. But yeah you might incorporate it into the flow. Just like captchas, rate limiting, fingerprints etc and all the other controls…

> you work on mobile apps you will notice that full attestation is too slow to put in the login path Hm, Play Integrity isn't that slow on Android, from my experience. > don't think a good security engineer would rely on atty as "front line" anti brute force control since bypasses are not that rare I'm not privy to device-wide bypasses of Play Integrity that ship with Trusted Execution Environment (which is pretty mu…

> Insulin monitoring apps

A monitoring app doesn't even interact with systems you don't own. Just put a liability disclaimer for running modified versions.

> warranted

Decided by whom? And why is Google trusted, not me? At minimum, I shouldn't face undue hardship with the government due to refusing to deal with a third party, unless we first remove most of Google's rights to set the terms.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#523

Post by omnimus »

moffkalast wrote: post #334
pjmlp wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Portugal we have the Multibanco network, which already provided Internet like services for buying stuff on the terminals and eventually graduated to have online payments as well, however only in Portugal. Likewise, in Germany we can have SEPA for most stuff. And in Greece there is Viva. Problem is getting something that actually works across all European countries.

SEPA would be a decent solution with instant QR code generation and app payments, but the transfer fees are ludicrous for daily use (~1-2€ per wire). Or maybe it's just my bank being greedy fucks as usual.

Yes. In some eastern EU countries instant SEPA payments with QR are already super popular because you don't pay fees and you don't need special terminal/gateway.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#524

Post by hdra »

compounding_it wrote: post #86
hirako2000 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean that the 2% something visa/Mastercard demand, is far more digestible by merchants when it doesn't represent the majority of their revenue?

If previously 3 merchants had visa / Mastercard out of 10 who only accepted cash or cheques, then with UPI all 10 now accept UPI but 7 or 8 accept a universal POS which allows more type of payments. If previously 10% payments were via cards that costed them 2%, then now if sales are 2-3x because of UPI and online payments, letting go of that 2% for even 20% share of cards is fine because they captured a larger market…

>simply because it's easier by tapping

i was under the impression UPI is just the underlying protocol, but an interface can be built on top be it tapping/QR/others? is that not the case?

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#525

Post by aspbee555 »

hermanzegerman wrote: post #457
aspbee555 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

with a debit card your cash is gone from your bank account in that moment, even if you get it back later (hopefully). With a credit card they are not able to drain your bank account, the risks are entirely on the cc company and they will be significantly more motivated to get that back than a bank would. it's entirely their problem, not yours

No, Card Misuse is their problem either way in the EU

misuse is not what I mean, I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account. I pay close attention to my bank account (as it is important for rent/important bills direct drafted), I only check the credit card when the bill comes in.

users can even avoid interest if they pay that card off every month

I pay everything with my credit card (bills, stores, online, etc) and pay it off at the end of the month. Even my tap-to-pay is tied to the credit card. I never use my debit card anywhere but an ATM. I have never had my bank account violated but I have had the credit card stolen from a store I visited (card company caught it as there was a bunch of fraud from the same store, they let me know and they proactively replaced my credit card)

I have never had my ATM card compromised as it is for one purpose, the ATM

best part of all is my credit score loves the large payments I always make on my credit card

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#526

Post by chrisjj »

hirako2000 wrote: post #42
tlogan wrote: post #5

So Wero is not a credit card, but something more like Venmo? How is it supposed to replace Visa and Mastercard?

The concept of a physical card is obsolete. That North Americans and western Europeans for a good part still use them is just stickiness of the infrastructure, and habits. Developing countries have mostly leapfrogged to total contactless payments. In South Aast Asia, you typically scan a QR code and approve a payment from your own phone. Far less fraud as a result. Nobody is able to touch your card, you don't have on…

And how do you do this without a phone?

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#527

Post by ignoramous »

digiown wrote: post #522
ignoramous wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you work on mobile apps you will notice that full attestation is too slow to put in the login path Hm, Play Integrity isn't that slow on Android, from my experience. > don't think a good security engineer would rely on atty as "front line" anti brute force control since bypasses are not that rare I'm not privy to device-wide bypasses of Play Integrity that ship with Trusted Execution Environment (which is pretty mu…

> Insulin monitoring apps A monitoring app doesn't even interact with systems you don't own. Just put a liability disclaimer for running modified versions. > warranted Decided by whom? And why is Google trusted, not me? At minimum, I shouldn't face undue hardship with the government due to refusing to deal with a third party, unless we first remove most of Google's rights to set the terms.

> A monitoring app doesn't even interact with systems you don't own. Just put a liability disclaimer for running modified versions.

This is unserious when Insulin overdose can be fatal.

> And why is Google trusted, not me?

(Hardware-assisted) Attestation on Android doesn't require apps to "trust Google".

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#528

Post by fhdkweig »

varjag wrote: post #425
fhdkweig wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are scrambling right now is because Starlink just shut off all of Russia. Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. And while all of Europe is happy…

Starlink was never available in Russia due to the sanctions regime. It's only use by Russians was via grey import terminals on the frontline in Ukraine (made possible due to complications of geofencing).

I guess I was misunderstanding. I thought that Starlink was deliberately ignoring the sanctions because they were able to shut it off real quick once Musk got that tweet https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2016221397396168995

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#529

Post by chrisjj »

hermanzegerman wrote: post #466
unixhero wrote: post #276

I for one enjoy my cash back points with American Express. This is not a commercial.

After paying 5% Commission to them in the overpriced stores that take it. Great Job, you played yourself

Nope. Merchant pays.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#530

Post by severino »

prmoustache wrote: post #499
severino wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but in Spain all of our cards are Visa or Mastercard, afaik, so you can't really avoid using American tech in your daily payments (unless you use cash, which remains a very convenient method, by the way).

The fact you have the visa or mastercard logo doesn't mean you can't avoit to use their tech for your daily payments. Example, in France most debit and credit cards are called "carte bleue" (literally blue card) but all of them either have a visa/mastercard logo. However when you pay with them you can decide with the merchant to use the CB system or the visa/mastercard. Sadly very few people know that and do the sele…

Interesting. I don't think there's anything similar here in Spain, though. On the other hand, in this same thread, somebody said Visa acquired that "Carte Bleue" system, and Wikipedia states it was discontinued in 2010. So maybe it's not possible to use anything other than visa/mc in France anymore
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