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Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

europeanbusinessmagazine.com

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Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#511

Post by JackSlateur »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #155
mentalgear wrote: post #35

Would be nice of the EU to provide a digital payment service quasi free of charge - without commercial provider's typical predatory fees and other costs. And don't counter with "privacy" .. it's not like all the American companies already have to provide backend access to their data to the NSA and other 3 letter agencies.

The problem with these is always who pays for fraud. With credit cards, they actually claw that money back from the merchant, and then if the merchant can't pay they just eat it themselves. So the merchant has to work in fraud rates into their pricing, and the credit card company has to work in fraud rates that the merchant can't cover into their rates. It always seemed toxic it to me that the merchants are the one's…

Could you describe what is the "fraud" you are talking about ?

Like, if someone stole a credit card and use it to buy stuff ?

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#512

Post by fhdkweig »

abcdefg12 wrote: post #397
fhdkweig wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are scrambling right now is because Starlink just shut off all of Russia. Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. And while all of Europe is happy…

Never mind russians putting starlinks on flying bombs to blow up Ukrainians. But those poor Russian Internet users you invented. While it’s jailable offense in russia to own starlink.

I think you misunderstood, I do not pity them at all. I am just pointing out it is bad strategy to be dependent on foreign potentially-hostile technology.

In particular, I heard this through Mallen Baker at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACzkuSFzT4

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#513

Post by self_awareness »

Europe, just adopt Blik.

Even Polish banks discourage using debit cards directly and just switch to Blik.

Lost card? There's no card, so doesn't apply. ATM skimmers? Nope, I think all ATM support Blik, so can't sniff anything. Want to send money to a friend? Instant mobile-friendly transfer. It's even possible that the family can pull the cash out from the ATM from your account when you're in a different city if you'll give out the code.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#514

Post by preisschild »

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #366
hahn-kev wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that it's a problem, but it can be easily fixed in the future. For example they could just change the app to work on any old android fork. You still get the benefit of no longer having transaction data run through the US.

But right now many of us are concerned with not being able to run e.g. GrapheneOS without locking ourselves out of all basic digital infrastructure. We shouldn't wait until it gets untenable for the EU to lock us into Google and Apple, we want independence from the start.

Not to mention that we are essentially forced to give up accsss to all of our private data stored on our phones to either google or apple because you have their rootkit (Google Play Services in the Android case) installed

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#515

Post by preisschild »

zb3 wrote: post #259
severino wrote: post #135

Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. Can't we have cards for this? In Spain, for example, to use Bizum, you need either an Android/iOS smartphone (and for the Android case, as you use it from your bank's app, it would typically require some Google security assurances - so no Huawei phones allowed, for example) or logging into your bank's website and use Bizum from the…

This "Play Integrity" garbage is the first thing europe should break with. Instead we have Italian government app refusing to run on devices not serving Google's interest.. shame.

Also often a requirement on govt digital identity apps...

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#516

Post by digiown »

linkregister wrote: post #409
digiown wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all the same. How is suing Google any different, if you instead get debanked by Google for violating their "terms"? The only solution is untraceable, permissionless money, like Monero. Why do you think governments try so hard to ban it?

Being de-Googled is a hardship, though there are replacements for virtually all its services. I acknowledge you are well informed on this topic. It is not unreasonable for governments to pursue avenues for laundering money. I recognize that you likely don't believe governments should prosecute money laundering, but that view is not aligned with the majority of citizens in your country.

Ah money laundering, the government's 2nd favorite excuse to bypass due process, remove freedom, and impose arbitrary punishments, after "emergency" and before "think of the children".

The government can prosecute money laundering and all the other crimes, but it's not an excuse to impose extrajudicial punishment. Until they stop, having some cash and crypto is your only means of defense.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#518

Post by digiown »

JambalayaJimbo wrote: post #460
digiown wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> important security measure It's a security measure against the owner of the device , in other words, an attack. Would you be okay with me using a remote control to forcibly slow down your car so I can merge? Using attestation this way is fundamentally incompatible with ownership. If the bank wants some assurance about a device, they need to sell or issue one to me, like credit cards or point of sale machines, which…

>against the owner of the device Would you consider MFA to be a measure against you, the owner of the device, because it makes it harder for you to login? >If the bank wants some assurance about a device, they need to sell or issue one to me They are offering you free software and are operating under a security model tied to these specific devices. You're still free to walk into their branches, or use their physical…

> MFA to be a measure against you

Not really, unless the MFA involves the same type of attestation involved in the process. TOTP is fine, and you can put it in your password manager to avoid phones, and can be done without consenting to any spying. And I don't really own the account anyway.

> use their physical cards

The premise of this discussion is these will get replaced by the hostile phone app, since the Europeans are too lazy to make a proper replacement.

> locking down infotainment systems

I don't agree with that either, but you can presumably buy a car without one, and you'd still be allowed to drive. What if the government says, you can't drive anymore UNLESS you use the locked down infotainment system and consent to all the ads/spying that comes with it?

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#519

Post by mrsssnake »

self_awareness wrote: post #513

Europe, just adopt Blik. Even Polish banks discourage using debit cards directly and just switch to Blik. Lost card? There's no card, so doesn't apply. ATM skimmers? Nope, I think all ATM support Blik, so can't sniff anything. Want to send money to a friend? Instant mobile-friendly transfer. It's even possible that the family can pull the cash out from the ATM from your account when you're in a different city if you'…

Not anonymous even for small amounts of money. Without tricks and workarounds Blik apps requires Google/Apple approved smartphone with Google/Apple approved build of the OS logged into Google/Apple account. Participation in the network is tied to private will have Blik association even on small scale.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#520

Post by WhyNotHugo »

The irony is that this new payment method has the exact same issue: it's deeply tied to US corporate.

Their site claims that it can only be used on iOS or Android: https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/en-us/articles/25599074240...

Also:

> It is not possible to use Wero via a web browser or on a computer.

This seems an even worse situation than carrying around a Maestro (mastercard) with me.

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