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I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

jamesdrandall.com

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Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#341

Post by clickety_clack »

JeremyNT wrote: post #149
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were a smart dev before AI, chances are you will remain a smart dev with AI. I don't think that's what people are upset about, or at least it's not for me. For me it's that writing code is really enjoyable, and delegating it to AI is hell on earth.

This is a part of it, but I also feel like a Luddite (the historical meaning, not the derogatory slang). I do use these tools, clearly see their potential, and know full well where this is going: capital is devaluing labor. My skills will become worthless. Maybe GP is right that at first only skilled developers can wield them to full effect, but it's obviously not going to stop there. If I could destroy these things…

> it’s obviously not going to stop there.

I don’t think it is obvious actually that you won’t have to have some expert experience/knowledge/skills to get the most out of these tools.

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#342

Post by lelanthran »

aabajian wrote: post #127

It seems AI is putting senior developers into two camps. Both groups relate to the statement, "I started programming when I was seven because a machine did exactly what I told it to, felt like something I could explore and ultimately know, and that felt like magic. I’m fifty now, and the magic is different, and I’m learning to sit with that." The difference is that the first camp is re-experiencing that feeling of wo…

> The difference is that the first camp is re-experiencing that feeling of wonder while the second camp is lamenting it.

I don't think so. I think the first camp does not get paid for programming, while the second camp does.

That's why the first camp is so happy, and why the second camp is not.

> I thankfully fall in the first camp. AI is allowing me to build things I couldn't, not due to a lack of skills, but a lack of time.

It sounds like you're developing for yourself only. Your attitude makes sense, then - you want a $FOO, and now you can have one without paying for it.

I think you can only empathise with the second camp if your ability to eat depends on being able to sell $FOOs.

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#343

Post by tehjoker »

sho_hn wrote: post #14

My advice to everyone feeling existential vertigo over these tools is to remain confident and trust in yourself. If you were a smart dev before AI, chances are you will remain a smart dev with AI. My experience so far is that to a first approximation, the quality of the code/software generated with AI corresponds to the quality of the developer using the AI tool surprisingly well. An inexperienced, bad dev will still…

It's a combination of things... it's not just that AI feels like it is stripping the dignity of the human spirit in some ways, but it's also that the work we are doing is often detrimental to our fellow man. So learning to work with AI to do that faster (!!) (if it is actually faster on average), feels like doubling down.

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#344

Post by dutchCourage »

mosburger wrote: post #177
samiv wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just told my gardener to cut the grass and work on some flower installations. I'm so excited about gardening again. Can't wait to do some. Employing a gardener to do my gardening for me is really making me enjoy gardening again!

this is a great analogy despite it possibly coming off as snark. I think it's hard for some people to grasp that programmers are motivated by different things. Some are motivated by shipping products to users, others are motivated to make code that's a giant elegant cathedral, still others love glorious hacks to bend the machine into doing things it was never really intended to do. And I'm sure I'm missing a few othe…

I think the people who like shipping quickly probably don't like building products in the first place and are looking for other aspects of entrepreneurship.

A huge benefit I find in AI is that it helps with a lot of things I hated. Merge conflicts, config files, breaking dependency updates... That leaves me more time to focus on the actual functionalities so I end up with better APIs, more detailed UIs, and more thorough tests. I do think it's possible to be relevant/competitive by only delegating parts of the work to AI and not the whole thing. Though it might change if AI gets too good.

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#347

Post by neilellis »

p-t wrote: post #290
neilellis wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose the question is "Do you feel Steve Jobs made the iPhone?" Not saying right/wrong but it's a useful Rorschach Test - about what you feel defines 'making this'?

it's more just a personal want to be able to see what I can do on my own tbh; i don't generally judge other people on that measure although i do think Steve Jobs didn't make the iPhone /alone/, and that a lot of other people contributed to that. i'd like to be able to name who helps me and not say "gemini". again, it's more of a personal thing lol

So not disagreeing as you say, it is a personal thing!

I honestly find coding with AI no easier than coding directly, it certainly does not feel like AI is doing my work for me. If it was I wouldn't have anything to do, in reality I spend my time thinking about much higher level abstractions, but of course this is a very personal thing too.

I myself have never thought of code as being my output, I've always enjoyed solving problems, and solutions have always been my output. It's just that before I had to write the code for the solutions. Now I solve the problems and the AI makes it into code.

I think that this probably the dividing line, some people enjoy working with tools (code, unix commands, editors), some people enjoy just solving the problems. Both of course are perfectly valid, but they do create a divide when looking at AI.

Of course when AI starts solving all problems, I will have a very different feeling :-)

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#348

Post by reactordev »

clickety_clack wrote: post #341
JeremyNT wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a part of it, but I also feel like a Luddite (the historical meaning, not the derogatory slang). I do use these tools, clearly see their potential, and know full well where this is going: capital is devaluing labor. My skills will become worthless. Maybe GP is right that at first only skilled developers can wield them to full effect, but it's obviously not going to stop there. If I could destroy these things…

> it’s obviously not going to stop there. I don’t think it is obvious actually that you won’t have to have some expert experience/knowledge/skills to get the most out of these tools.

Today. Ask again in 6 months. A year.

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#349

Post by reactordev »

goatlover wrote: post #312
jonas21 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I could destroy these things - as the Luddites tried - I would do so, but that's obviously impossible. Certainly, you must realize how much worse life would be for all of us had the Luddites succeeded.

Or perhaps they would have advanced the cause of labor and prevented some of the exploitation from the ownership class. Depends on which side of the story you want to tell. The slur Luddite is a form of historical propaganda. Putting it in today's terms, if the goal of AI is to significantly reduce the labor force so that shareholders can make more money and tech CEOs can become trillionaires, it's understandable why…

Reaganomics has never worked

Re: I started programming when I was 7. I'm 50 now and the thing I loved has changed

#350

Post by lelanthran »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #92
sho_hn wrote: post #14

My advice to everyone feeling existential vertigo over these tools is to remain confident and trust in yourself. If you were a smart dev before AI, chances are you will remain a smart dev with AI. My experience so far is that to a first approximation, the quality of the code/software generated with AI corresponds to the quality of the developer using the AI tool surprisingly well. An inexperienced, bad dev will still…

> If you were a smart dev before AI, chances are you will remain a smart dev with AI. I don't think that's what people are upset about, or at least it's not for me. For me it's that writing code is really enjoyable, and delegating it to AI is hell on earth.

> For me it's that writing code is really enjoyable, and delegating it to AI is hell on earth.

It's very sad, for me.

Like I told someone recently - letting the LLM write my code for me is like letting the LLM play my video games for me.

If all I wanted was the achievement on my steam profile, then sure, it makes sense, but that achievement is not why I play video games.

I'm looking at all these people proudly showing off their video game achievements, gained just by writing specs, and I realise that all of them fail to realise that writing specs is a lower-skill activity than writing programs.

It also pays far, far less - a BA earns about half what an average dev earns. They're cosplaying at being BAs, not realising that they are now employed for a skill that pays less, and it's only a matter of time before the economics catch up to them.

I don't see a solution here.

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