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The Great College Hoax

forbes.com

101–110 of 139 posts

Re: The Great College Hoax

#101
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

count yourself lucky. attractive women who don't spend their lives acting like 3rd graders just because they can are few and far between. This is also why people join mensa and similar clubs even though it seems kind of stupid to pay to belong to a "smart club". People need a level of interaction similar to their own. I'm sure most of the people on hacker news are frustrated on a daily basis with the 8th grade readin…

I do count myself as lucky -- very lucky! However, I continue to be amazed at how many men I find that are scared by smart women. But that's a topic for another thread. And perhaps not on HN.

that makes me happy. if everyone loved smart girls it would lower my chances of finding one even more.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#102
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you define comfortable? I'm really curious to know what goods and services are beyond your reach at $110k/year. I've also done the math and lived it. Commuting from jersey is better, but even manhattan (north of 111'th st) is quite livable.

$110k is ~$6600/mo net working Manhattan, living in Jersey. Aggressively assume $2500/mo to rent a house (forget buying). Assume part-time child care @ $900, commute @ $400, lowball utilities @ $500 (I pay more than that in Chicago), food @ $1000, car insurance for one car @ $200, and dependent health care at $150. At $110k/yr, you're now less than $1000/mo over break-even. Lose an alternator in the car, you're in th…

Food @ $1000?! Maybe if you eat out every day...Most American families would laugh at this. If you cook at home and plan properly, you can easily feed a family on far less.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#103
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you define comfortable? I'm really curious to know what goods and services are beyond your reach at $110k/year. I've also done the math and lived it. Commuting from jersey is better, but even manhattan (north of 111'th st) is quite livable.

$110k is ~$6600/mo net working Manhattan, living in Jersey. Aggressively assume $2500/mo to rent a house (forget buying). Assume part-time child care @ $900, commute @ $400, lowball utilities @ $500 (I pay more than that in Chicago), food @ $1000, car insurance for one car @ $200, and dependent health care at $150. At $110k/yr, you're now less than $1000/mo over break-even. Lose an alternator in the car, you're in th…

How do you spend $1000 a month on food? That's $10 a meal! You can't spend $10 a meal even if you eat half a pound of Safeway steak for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

At the other end of the spectrum, dry rice is 33¢ a pound, beans and corn are 50¢ a pound, vegetable oil is $1.29 a liter; multivitamins, water and gas are basically free. The standard corn/beans/rice diet costs about 10¢ per pound of cooked food, which is a meal for four people, 1% of what you were spending.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#105
A lot of people in the comments here are talking about the return on investment of the law-school tuition, but nobody seems to have calculated it.

First, some comparison figures. Warren Buffett expects businesses he buys to return about 4% on capital. The US stock market during the 20th century returned about 10% on capital. A bank loaned me money to buy a house in 2000 at a 6.5% interest rate, before the mortgage bubble; presumably it thought that was a good return on the capital it invested in the loan. But it had some risk that I would default on the loan, which lowers its expected return on capital to something a bit below 6.5%.

This Joel Kellum guy spent US$36 000 a year on a law program, presumably for three years, for a total of US$108 000. Then he got a job that paid him at least US$100 000 per year, instead of the US$57 500 per year of an average college graduate. If we assume for the sake of simplicity that he only went to law school to make money (instead of, say, because of a passion for justice or the Socratic training in logic that are part of a law-school education) and that the difference in earnings is solely due to this legal training — rather than, say, because he was working 80 hours a week, or got very lucky — then his investment was returning at least US$42 500 per year. That's roughly a 42.500/108 = 39% return on investment.

That's not a full NPV analysis, of course, because it neglects the forgone income during his law-school years, the earnings difference he can expect over the years as his lawyer earnings increase at a more rapid pace than an average worker, and the three-year delay between investing his first tuition dollar and landing his junior associate position. Still, it's tough to manipulate those figures to get less than a 20% ROI.

I don't see Joel Kellum gets off complaining about a 39% or even a 20% return on his investment. Better yet, it wasn't even his investment — he borrowed most of it at rates that "have ticked as high as 9%"! Any investor would kill for yearly returns like that, even before you multiply by the leverage. Better still, in student loans, typically the lender shares in much of the downside risk — you don't have to make payments until you get a job, for example.

This is the kind of investment around which Forbes is tossing about phrases such as "consumer fraud" and "trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product"? What is their agenda?

It's also kind of pathetic to see education as merely a means of making more money; but even if you see it in such narrowly self-centered terms, it's an extremely good investment.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#106
post #26
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article states that he and his wife landed six figure salaries, but graduated with 194k in debt. I think more crucial to how the story unfolded is that they probably didn't live below their means, probably didn't consolidate the loans to a lower rate (they were paying rates at 9%-12%), and probably didn't pay the loan off aggressively. I wouldn't blame going to college, or college choice for poor financial sense.

According to the article, the loans were at 18% variable rate... that's probably most of the problem right there.

No, that was somebody else's loan. Kellum's was variable rate that varied up to 9%; Coultas's was variable rate up to 12%.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#107
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…

The lawyer mentioned was clearly a dope. The story said he accepted a loan for over $100K without knowing what the interest rate was or who he was borrowing from. Sure, they might have pressured him (like car dealerships do), but you'd have to be moron to get suckered that bad.

The interest rate was pretty good, only varying up to 9%. I'm not a fan of variable-rate loans but he seems to have come out on the good end of this one.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#108
Shorter version of my long comment: Forbes is calling college education a fraud because Joel Kellum only gets a 39% yearly return on his "invested" tuition, which he borrowed most of at 9% or less. WTF?

Re: The Great College Hoax

#109

Shutter the bad and mediocre colleges, law schools, and business programs. These diploma mills border on fraud. Most people who think they went to "college" didn't. They were expensively babysat for four years because the job market couldn't figure out what to do with them (and, alas, still can't). The upper-middle tier schools (respectable but not distinguished state schools) shall stay in business but should be hal…

I'm living in Europe -- Germany to be exact -- but never noticed any "elitist" European-style system for a University degree. So I digged out some numbers. This is hard to translate, so my apologies for bad grammer.

In Germany in 2006, 43,4% of people born in a certain year managed to make the necessary degree to be able go to a higher education system (universities, etc.). This is quite a difference to the 5-15% you assume to be "usual".

Additionally, the majority of universities here are public schools, with (recently introduced) fees of about 1000 Euros per year. This is also quite a difference to your assumption that 85% of students go to a private college.

Additionally, some traditional German qualifications ("Meisterprüfung", for example) are taught in other school forms, that are considered to be a university degree elsewhere.

Looking at the other European countries, the numbers are different, of course. That's party due to the fact that some countries require collage degrees for certain jobs not necessary elsewehere. In Sweden and Finland, for example, nurses seem to need one. In Finland, up to 71% of people born in a certain year seem to start a college education.

For other numbers, please see the fourth table here: http://tinyurl.com/dn22rh. The third column indicates how many percent of people born in a certain year start a higher degree. For example, it was 32% in Belgium according to the 2001 OECD study.

Re: The Great College Hoax

#110
I am appalled that people could think of education as a luxury. In many Eurpean countries University is free or very cheap. Full educational opportunites for all a countries citizens, as well as comprehensive healthcare, are the hallmarks of a civilized society. Good luck, prosperity and happiness to you all.
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