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Open Source ARM userland

raspberrypi.org

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Re: Open Source ARM userland

#51

Post by konstruktor »

gioele wrote: post #50
konstruktor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philosophical doesn't mean arbitrary.

"Philosophical" means related to wisdom or knowledge. Philosophy inquires about the nature of things and the boundaries of nature itself. In that sentence, «philosophical reasons», philosophical meant abstract, remote, detached from practical concerns. The freedoms sought by FLOSS people are very much practical (see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and with many concrete effects on your daily life. Engin…

You are mostly referring to epistemology and ontology, two rather theoretic branches of philosophy that probably aren't that relevant to software. The philosophy of free software (even your URL contains the P-Word ;)) makes use of ethical arguments and political philosophy, for examples the ideals of enlightenment. The age of enlightenment was kickstarted by philosophers, some of whom went to prison for clearly voicing thoughts that seem quite common to us today.

I want to argue that, while modern academic philosophy may be a bit of an ivory tower, philosophy in general isn't synonymous with "detached from practical concerns".

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#52

Post by steevdave »

gbog wrote: post #47

Does it mean that we will soon see many cheap arm based computers built in China? (Similar to android effect)

You mean like all the Allwinner boards? Closest you're going to come to the price is ~50USD. I doubt the Chinese have the VideoCore GPU available to them (they use Mali) so, no.

My hope is that it would at least get ARM to open up more of the Mali stuff, but based on my interpretation (and experience) there is nothing extremely special between this announcement and every other ARM board. The meaty GPU bits that are the really fun and interesting bit are still locked away in a firmware blob.

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#53

Post by exDM69 »

This is not really open source, just a dump of boilerplate code that is of no real value to any hackers. It serves as a good PR stunt but is not really of any technical value.

I write software for ARM system on chips for living so I was naturally interested in what would a competitor's software stack look like. And I was very skeptical that they would have actually revealed anything of importance. And, unfortunately, I was right. There's nothing important here (at least in the 3d part).

The OpenGL implementation is still somewhere in a binary blob that is not accessible.

The graphics drivers would reveal crucial information about the hardware design and give an advantage to the competitors who can use that information and the software itself to make chips cheaper.

I'm not talking about established competitors in the high end market but the anonymous small chip companies that do chips for the $100 Android tablets you can get from Asia.

Note: I would really like that everyone in the SoC business would open source everything they had and and the competition would be about who designs and manufactures the badassest silicon chips. But that's just not the way it works and I can't do anything about it.

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#54

Post by hermanhermitage »

exDM69 wrote: post #53

This is not really open source, just a dump of boilerplate code that is of no real value to any hackers. It serves as a good PR stunt but is not really of any technical value. I write software for ARM system on chips for living so I was naturally interested in what would a competitor's software stack look like. And I was very skeptical that they would have actually revealed anything of importance. And, unfortunately,…

Boilerplate? The title is "Open source arm user land". Which is exactly what the code is. With all the available code you can expose VideoCore services to bare metal or new OS ports.

The OpenGL ES implementation is accessible via the interface. The VideoCore firmware has not been open sourced and that claim hasn't been made.

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#55

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #14
Nursie wrote: post #6

OK good, now the blob?

This is a pretty dumb request. What are you going to do with a chunk of bits for a processor for which you don't even have a toolchain. There is nothing more to open source other than what is already there. Asking for 'the blob' is akin to asking for the firmware source to a hard disk. Even if you had it you could not do much with it.

[deleted]

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#56

Post by seacond »

exDM69 wrote: post #53

This is not really open source, just a dump of boilerplate code that is of no real value to any hackers. It serves as a good PR stunt but is not really of any technical value. I write software for ARM system on chips for living so I was naturally interested in what would a competitor's software stack look like. And I was very skeptical that they would have actually revealed anything of importance. And, unfortunately,…

Is there no value to a computer beyond graphics and 3D?

It's fascinating to see people who would seem to be aligned with the RPi's goals getting hostile toward the RPi Foundation. Why is this? My (probably wrong) guess on the psychology at work is that it is not the lack of much forward progress in this project (unquestionably, they have made _some_ forward progress by making the RPi, regardless of whether it is "enough"), but it is the idea of "stealing someone else's fire". It threatens people whose devoted purpose is to fight for what they perceive as the impossible: a totally open device or those whose mission it is only to complain about the lack of openness in devices (cf. actually willing to make sacrafices to use an open device). It steals their fire. The more open things become, even if only a little more open, the less they have to fight for or complain about. Their devoted purpose starts to deflate. It's less important.

And I would guess there are also those who just can't stand to see any sort of change. When the "impossible" starts to seem eventually possible, it's disorienting for them.

My understanding of this announcement is that it's directed at people who are trying to port other OS's to the RPi. Having this code makes their work easier. What if I do not use Linux much? What if I am not insistent on using my computer only as a TV set or a game console? What if my usage is text-based? What if I just want to run another OS on the Pi? Would I consider making this userland code available a definite step forward?

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#57

Post by wmf »

exDM69 wrote: post #53

This is not really open source, just a dump of boilerplate code that is of no real value to any hackers. It serves as a good PR stunt but is not really of any technical value. I write software for ARM system on chips for living so I was naturally interested in what would a competitor's software stack look like. And I was very skeptical that they would have actually revealed anything of importance. And, unfortunately,…

I disagree strongly. The value is that if APIs change (which they will), the drivers can be ported forward. Unlike all those poor routers stuck on Linux 2.4 forever, Raspberry Pi can now be maintained by the community.

The purpose of open source isn't always to learn. Sometimes the purpose is just to make your computer work.

(It's interesting that hackers were opposed to softmodems and such for many years but now people are taking the opposite stance in this thread.)

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#58

Post by neckbeard »

exDM69 wrote: post #53

This is not really open source, just a dump of boilerplate code that is of no real value to any hackers. It serves as a good PR stunt but is not really of any technical value. I write software for ARM system on chips for living so I was naturally interested in what would a competitor's software stack look like. And I was very skeptical that they would have actually revealed anything of importance. And, unfortunately,…

You aren't the only person to think this:

http://airlied.livejournal.com/76383.html

"really what they've released is totally useless to anyone who uses or develops this stuff."

Re: Open Source ARM userland

#59

Post by ekianjo »

damian2000 wrote: post #27
ekianjo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the supply is getting better. They have been increasing the production rates and the delivery timings are getting shorter.

Just wanted to mention that the supply from Element 14 in Australia is outstanding. I put in an order for 2x model B's two weeks ago and received them both (512mb model) last thursday ... approx. an 8 day wait.

Apparently Element14 does not ship to Japan. Even if you select "others" in the first country selection list. I have no idea why...
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