Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

faircompanies.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 46 posts

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#31

Post by ph0rque »

cs702 wrote: post #30
ph0rque wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it needs now is for a talented entrepreneur to come in, find an early-adopter market for it, and turn the technology into a standardized product that can be sold at scale. That's what we're trying to do with our project, AutoMicroFarm ( http://automicrofarm.com/ ).

A very commendable effort, but I'm not sure you will find product-market fit by targeting homeowners as early adopters, because most homeowners are extremely busy and therefore happy to pay for the convenience of a grocery store and last-minute takeout food. (I'm speaking from personal experience: I don't have the time or desire to install and manage something like AutoMicroFarm in my home, but I routinely pay for on…

Thanks for suggestions. We're targeting gardeners as early and mid-term adopters, of whom there are quite a lot in the US. However, we certainly are keeping an eye on the commercial markets you mention. The biggest problem that I see is that for those markets, you need quite a lot of produce to start replacing a large percentage of their fresh plant offerings.

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#32

Post by emillon »

xutopia wrote: post #17
emillon wrote: post #2

That is quite an awesome system ! I wonder how efficient this is. But it tackles the toxicity issue that exists with usual hydroponics systems. Here is another implementation : http://faircompanies.com/videos/view/backyard-aquaponics-diy...

What toxicity issues exist with hydroponics? I know nothing about growing plants.

When you grow plants with no soil (only neutral substrate such as clay or gravel), it is necessary to provide extra nutrients (esp. nitrates) that are hard to dispose properly. In the case of vegetables or edible plants, it is also necessary to "rinse" the system by running only water through eat before it's ready for consumption. (Disclaimer : I'm not a hydroponics specialist.)

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#33

Post by bduerst »

gukjoon wrote: post #29
jivatmanx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the economics of hydroponics would suggest that it should already dominate commercial vegetable production. The main reason they're not, is because municipalities greatly undervalue water, and because agriculture is so highly subsidized and so it's hard for hydroponics to compete. 1. Underselling water Municipal water prices set by local government greatly undervalue the actual rarity of water. With so many a…

The real question is whether aquaponics can create higher quality food than organic produce, which is not subsidized. Subsidies are also unsustainable in the long run. The major costs in aquaponics are in the technology, which will inevitably get cheaper. If aquaponic agriculture truly represents an order of magnitude improvement in water use and space use, and can produce better food, it's only a matter of time befo…

>whether aquaponics can create higher quality food than organic produce

Why single out the organic market?

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#34

Post by jivatmanx »

gukjoon wrote: post #29
jivatmanx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the economics of hydroponics would suggest that it should already dominate commercial vegetable production. The main reason they're not, is because municipalities greatly undervalue water, and because agriculture is so highly subsidized and so it's hard for hydroponics to compete. 1. Underselling water Municipal water prices set by local government greatly undervalue the actual rarity of water. With so many a…

The real question is whether aquaponics can create higher quality food than organic produce, which is not subsidized. Subsidies are also unsustainable in the long run. The major costs in aquaponics are in the technology, which will inevitably get cheaper. If aquaponic agriculture truly represents an order of magnitude improvement in water use and space use, and can produce better food, it's only a matter of time befo…

Yes, hydroponics produces the best possible quality food that can be made. Being a closed system, it also doesn't require pesticides so it's essentially organic anyhow.

You are correct that Organic produce is the obvious immediate competitor. I wonder if hydroponically grown good can be labeled as organic. it could certainly come with no label at all.

As to whether there's a marketing benefit to actually being labeled as hydroponically grown, I've no idea.

As for subsidies, I assume that Organic food takes advantage of all of the same subsidies as non-organically grown food.

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#35

Post by jivatmanx »

jivatmanx wrote: post #34
gukjoon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is whether aquaponics can create higher quality food than organic produce, which is not subsidized. Subsidies are also unsustainable in the long run. The major costs in aquaponics are in the technology, which will inevitably get cheaper. If aquaponic agriculture truly represents an order of magnitude improvement in water use and space use, and can produce better food, it's only a matter of time befo…

Yes, hydroponics produces the best possible quality food that can be made. Being a closed system, it also doesn't require pesticides so it's essentially organic anyhow. You are correct that Organic produce is the obvious immediate competitor. I wonder if hydroponically grown good can be labeled as organic. it could certainly come with no label at all. As to whether there's a marketing benefit to actually being labele…

I wonder if it would be smart to labeled it "Organic Hydroponically grown" or "Hydroponically Grown Organic" or something similar

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#36

Post by jlgreco »

jivatmanx wrote: post #19
cs702 wrote: post #16

If I understand correctly, this 'aquaponics' solution: * does not require arable land, because the plants grow on containers filled with stones through which water constantly circulates; * uses an order of magnitude less water than traditional agriculture, because the water is constantly recycled back from a nearby fish tank, and because the rock layer prevents water from evaporating; * allows plant density (i.e., nu…

Indeed, the economics of hydroponics would suggest that it should already dominate commercial vegetable production. The main reason they're not, is because municipalities greatly undervalue water, and because agriculture is so highly subsidized and so it's hard for hydroponics to compete. 1. Underselling water Municipal water prices set by local government greatly undervalue the actual rarity of water. With so many a…

Is water used by hydroponics really "used"? As far as I can tell, aside from "loss" to evaporation and water used in part of the mass that makes up the fruit you send out, nothing should really be wasting water.

It seems likely that lost water due to evaporation with this type of setup should be a great deal less than water lost with traditional farming (spraying water with things like center-pivot irrigation machines should cause much more evaporation. I mean, come on... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Irrigatio...), and water lost through fruit mass is irrelevant.

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#37

Post by zbowling »

I know this guy. I competed with him at a hackathon two months ago. He built of automated power tracking tools to tell you your power usage and would turn off lights and things. Took home second place. I ended up winning with my solar subsidy ipad calculator (told if you could save money in your local area if you bought an electric car and install solar panels in your home over gasoline and unsubsidized power). Was fun as hell. Pounded out a lot of code over a few beers on a weekend.

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#38

Post by blhack »

This might be a controversial thing to say here, but I think that clandestine marijuana farmers are really heavily pushing the limits of urban agriculture.

The things you're working for when growing pot:

1) A minimal energy footprint. A giant power bill is a dead giveaway that you're running grow lamps

2) Maximum plant density -- lots of plants close together is good for both absorbing light and using space. More plants = more money.

Obviously that isn't what this person is growing, but I find pot growers to be an interesting bunch. They're ag-hackers, and they seem to be really good at it, and really good at trading information about it.

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#39

Post by AceJohnny2 »

cs702 wrote: post #16

If I understand correctly, this 'aquaponics' solution: * does not require arable land, because the plants grow on containers filled with stones through which water constantly circulates; * uses an order of magnitude less water than traditional agriculture, because the water is constantly recycled back from a nearby fish tank, and because the rock layer prevents water from evaporating; * allows plant density (i.e., nu…

I've attended a class with Eric Mandu as part of Workshop Weekend a year ago. He's awesome.

For the semi-amateur, aquaponics is actually pretty tough to start up. Of course you need your initial equipment investment, but mostly getting a stable system is finicky and takes time. The longest part is getting your "live rock" fully active, i.e. nitriting and nitrating bacteria in the stones that convert the fish waste into stuff the plants can use. You essentially have a metastable system that takes a lot of supervision and some chemicals to setup, kinda like keeping a swimming pool clean, except you want just the right ratio of bacteria.

Furthermore, at his scales you can't monetize the fish. A possible choice of fish would be Tilapia, but at those scales it isn't worth it, but more importantly you can't cultivate those without a special license: IIRC they're considered invasive species in California. Maintaining such a license requires way more investment than what's possible at his level.

Anyhow, aquaponics are pretty awesome, but aren't yet economically viable compared to standard agriculture in most places* and there are legislative and economic issues that make it tough to kickstart. I hope Eric's work increases awareness and carves a path.

*I wonder about McMurdo and the ISS... :)

Re: Arduino-based, urban aquaponics in Oakland

#40

Post by AceJohnny2 »

blhack wrote: post #38

This might be a controversial thing to say here, but I think that clandestine marijuana farmers are really heavily pushing the limits of urban agriculture. The things you're working for when growing pot: 1) A minimal energy footprint. A giant power bill is a dead giveaway that you're running grow lamps 2) Maximum plant density -- lots of plants close together is good for both absorbing light and using space. More pla…

I'm interested in hydroponics in aquaponics. All the shops selling hydropics equipment, like grow lamps, have a rasta-hippie vibe to them. I wonder why...
Post reply on HN