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We mourn our craft

nolanlawson.com

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Re: We mourn our craft

#771

Post by Dumblydorr »

cat-whisperer wrote: post #766

> We’ll miss the feeling of holding code in our hands I agree, I started feeling this a few months ago, where I was only writing the architecture and abstractions and letting AI fill in the gaps. It seems in the next few months it could probably do more than that. But is it so bad, I agree that I can't really mold an entire pot by my hand any more. But, if you ask AI to do it, it will create a pot with cracks in it a…

Sort of ironic. My dad coded on hole punch cards and hated it, hated th physicality of that. Now he super loves AI, having left the field 20 years ago due to language fatigue.

Re: We mourn our craft

#772

Post by Dumblydorr »

Nextgrid wrote: post #137

LLMs are only a threat if you see your job as a code monkey. In that case you're likely already obsoleted by outsourced staff who can do your job much cheaper. If you see your job as a "thinking about what code to write (or not)" monkey, then you're safe. I expect most seniors and above to be in this position, and LLMs are absolutely not replacing you here - they can augment you in certain situations. The perks of a…

Why is that safe in the medium to long term? If LLMs can code monkey already after just 4 years, why assume in a couple more they can’t talk to the seniors’ direct report and get requirements from them? I’m learning carpentry just in case.

Re: We mourn our craft

#773

Post by throw1235435 »

tejohnso wrote: post #762
wasmainiac wrote: post #757

> If you would like to grieve, I invite you to grieve with me. I’m not against AI in itself, but the current implementation (read market) can eat my shiny metal … I got kids to feed and bills to pay. Yes AI was all about post scarcity. Hiring in our industry is already feeling the brunt of AI, where is the UBI? Where is our soft landing? I’m too old to learn XYZ skill if I get laid off, it will be life changing, and…

> I’m too old to learn XYZ skill if I get laid off, it will be life changing, and for what? If you're not already retirement aged, how is age stopping you from learning a new skill? This sounds like learned ageism.

Generally from a financial planning standpoint 35-50 is typically the "grinding years" where mortgage, family, and other life commitments means that typically your career investment needs to pay off to make it through. In some ways it is the "danger zone" financially. Hard to change careers (not young enough), but not yet worked enough to retire with large expenses coming in. This isn't unique to software engineers either -> this is most people in most jobs.

There are also mixed people on these forums in different regions, countries, work experiences, etc. For example software in most places in the world had an above average salary but not extremely high (i.e. many other white collar professions would pay similar/more). For those people where it is a standard skilled role it probably hits even harder now than say the ones with lots of stock who can retire early and enjoy the new toy that is AI.

Re: We mourn our craft

#774

Post by [deleted] »

crazygringo wrote: post #219
tatjam wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the cooks don't exist anymore as they all have become head chefs (or changed careers) and the food is being cooked by magical cooking black boxes

Sure, but the point is you're now doing the most creative and satisfying part. Not the drudgery. It's not that you've stopped doing anything at all, like the other commenter claimed in their personal chef analogy.

[deleted]

Re: We mourn our craft

#775

Post by alephnerd »

wasmainiac wrote: post #757

> If you would like to grieve, I invite you to grieve with me. I’m not against AI in itself, but the current implementation (read market) can eat my shiny metal … I got kids to feed and bills to pay. Yes AI was all about post scarcity. Hiring in our industry is already feeling the brunt of AI, where is the UBI? Where is our soft landing? I’m too old to learn XYZ skill if I get laid off, it will be life changing, and…

> Hiring in our industry is already feeling the brunt of AI

AI isn't what is driving us to slow hiring down in the US. There are other reasons I have brought up multiple times on HN.

> I’m too old to learn XYZ skill if I get laid off

Sadly, you will have to.

My dad is in his 60s and has been programming and soldering since ZX Spectrums and apple ][s roamed the earth, yet he still keeps abreast on the latest CNCF projects, prompt engineering, A2A, eBPF, and other modern stacks.

Meanwhile I'm seeing people half his age flaming out and kvetching that spending some time further studying A2A, MCP, and other design patterns is insurmountable.

Software Engineering is an ENGINEERING discipline. If you do not keep abreast on the changes happening in our industry, you will fall behind.

And in fact, having years of experience is a net benefit because newer innovations themselves build on top of older fundamentals.

For example, understanding Linux internals helps debug GPUs that communicate via Infiniband that are being used to train models that are being orchestrated via K8s and are operating on segmented networks.

Our PortCos and I are not hiring you to be a code monkey writing pretty looking code. If we want a code monkey we can offshore. We are paying you $200k-300k base salaries in order to architect, translate, and negotiate business requirements into technical requirements.

Yes this will require EQ on top of technical depth. That is what engineering is. The whole point of engineering is to build sh#t that works well enough. It doesn't have to be pretty, it will often be MacGyvered, and it will have glaring issues that are tomorrow's problem - but it is solving a problem.

Re: We mourn our craft

#776

Post by AndrewKemendo »

hnlmorg wrote: post #755
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is…true of all technologies since forever

Except it's not. Traditional algorithms are well understood because they're deterministic formulas. We know what the output is if we know the input. The surprises that happen with traditional algorithms are when they're applied in non-traditional scenarios as an experiment. Whereas with LLMs, we get surprised even when using them in an expected way. This is why so much research happens investigating how these models…

I don’t know what to tell you other than to say that the concept of determinism in engineering is extremely new

Everything you said right now holds equally true for chemical engineering and biomedical engineering so like you need get some experience

Re: We mourn our craft

#777

Post by infp_arborist »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #218
codazoda wrote: post #59

“We’ll miss creating something we feel proud of” I still feel proud when skillfully guiding a set of AI agents to build from my imagination. Especially when it was out of my reach just 6-months ago. I’m a 49 year old veteran who started at just 10 years old and have continued to find pure passion in it.

I wonder if this is just a matter of degree. In a few years (or less) you may not have to "skillfully guide" anything. The agents will just coordinate themselves and accomplish your goals after you give some vague instruction. Will you still feel proud? Or maybe a bit later then agents will come up with their own improvements and just ship them without any input at all. How about then?

Then we can finally turn off the computers and go outside to play with friends.

Re: We mourn our craft

#778

Post by hnlmorg »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #776
hnlmorg wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's not. Traditional algorithms are well understood because they're deterministic formulas. We know what the output is if we know the input. The surprises that happen with traditional algorithms are when they're applied in non-traditional scenarios as an experiment. Whereas with LLMs, we get surprised even when using them in an expected way. This is why so much research happens investigating how these models…

I don’t know what to tell you other than to say that the concept of determinism in engineering is extremely new Everything you said right now holds equally true for chemical engineering and biomedical engineering so like you need get some experience

That’s some epic goal post shifting going on there!!

We’re talking about software algorithms. Chemical and biomedical engineering are entirely different fields. As are psychology, gardening, and morris dancing

Re: We mourn our craft

#779

Post by AndrewKemendo »

soulofmischief wrote: post #763
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not Nobody has built a human so we don’t know how they work We know exactly how LLM technology works

We know why they work, but not how . SotA models are an empirical goldmine, we are learning a lot about how information and intelligence organize themselves under various constraints. This is why there are new papers published every single day which further explore the capabilities and inner-workings of these models.

You can look at the weights and traces all you like with telemetry and tracing

If you don’t own the model then you have a problem that has nothing to do with technology

Re: We mourn our craft

#780

Post by chickensong »

autoexec wrote: post #723
sosomoxie wrote: post #10

I started programming over 40 years ago because it felt like computers were magic. They feel more magic today than ever before. We're literally living in the 1980s fantasy where you could talk to your computer and it had a personality. I can't believe it's actually happening, and I've never had more fun computing. I can't empathize with the complaint that we've "lost something" at all. We're on the precipice of somet…

> we're definitely in a golden age of computing. Certainly not. Computers are still magic, but much of that magic is now controlled and being restricted by someone other than you. Today most people's only computer is a cell phone, which is heavily locked down and designed for media consumption and to collect and give away every scrap of their personal/private data. Most people's desktop computers aren't much better.…

What you're saying might be true, but it's also a choice to delegate responsibility to someone other than yourself. I'm not saying that the adversarial state of computing is ok, just that most people don't care, or don't like the alternatives.

Even as someone concerned with the issues you mention, the shift happening now feels pretty magical to me. I can only imagine how non-technical people must feel.

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