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I am happier writing code by hand

abhinavomprakash.com

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Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#271

Post by dalmo3 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #163
arjie wrote: post #161

My wife and my dad enjoy assembling furniture (the former free style, the latter off the instructions). I like the furniture assembled but I cannot stand doing it. Some of us are one way and others are the other way. For me, LLMs are joyful experiences. I think of ideas and they make them happen. Remarkable and enjoyable. I can see how someone who would rather assemble the furniture, or perhaps build it, would like t…

Its a new distinction. Building software used to be the same things as coding software. Now they are different.

Excellent insight. And thanks for addressing the actual subject rather than the analogy.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#272

Post by dalmo3 »

kmaitreys wrote: post #184
mooktakim wrote: post #70

Initially I felt like this but now I've changed. Now I realise a lot of grunt work doesn't need to be done by me, i can direct llm to make changes. I can also experiment more as I'm able to build complex features, try it out and delete it without feeling too bad.

The more I read about things like this more I realize that software engineering today's just bloat and grunt work that people want to escape. It's so ironic because computers/computer programs were literally invented to avoid doing grunt work.

To be fair a lot of bloat and gruntness are safety nets we built for our own benefit. Static typing, linting, test harnesses, visual regressions, CI etc. If AI to do the legwork there while I focus on business logic and UX, it's a win-win.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#273

Post by bigstrat2003 »

Ronsenshi wrote: post #110
layer8 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels good to some people. Personally I have difficulty relating to that, it’s antithetical to important parts of what I value about software development. Feeling good for me comes from deeply understanding the problem and the code, and knowing how they do match up.

I agree with you. I had done a bit of vibe coding over the weekend. Not once did it feel good. Most of the time it produced things which are close to what I needed, but not quite hitting the mark. Partially probably because I'm not explaining myself in sufficient detail to AI, but the way I work is not working very well with super detailed spec ahead of development. I used to always develop understanding of the proje…

Yep, I agree 100%. People have described AI coding as "delegating". But there's a reason I'm an IC and not a manager. It's because I don't want to delegate to someone else who does the work, I want to do the work. There's no joy to be had in having someone else do the work at my behest.

If the future of the technology industry truly is having AI write software for you, then I will do what I have to do. At the end of the day I have to put food on the table. But I will hate every second of my job at that point, and it sucks ass.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#274

Post by JodieBenitez »

direwolf20 wrote: post #217
JodieBenitez wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not sure about the productivity. Last time I asked a LLM to generate a lib for me it did it in a few second but the result took me the day to review and correct. About the same time it would take me to write it from scratch.

I think you're supposed to ask another LLM instance to review it, then ask the first LLM instance to implement corrections, or that's how I understand it.

Ah... so it's like violence, we just need more of it :)

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#275

Post by yoz-y »

echelon wrote: post #98
yoz-y wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that the real dichotomy here. You can either produce 2-5x good maintainable code, or 10-50x more dogshit code that works 80-90% of the time, and that will be a maintenance nightmare. The management has decided that the latter is preferable for short term gains.

It's not dogshit if you're steering. That's what so many of you are not getting. Look at the pretty pictures AI generates. That's where we are with code now. Except you have ComfyUI instead of ChatGPT. You can work with precision. I'm a 500k TC senior SWE. I write six nines, active-active, billion dollar a day systems. I'm no stranger to writing thirty page design documents. These systems can work in my domain just f…

The problem is not that it can’t produce good code if you’re steering. The problem is that:

There are multiple people on each team, you can not know how closely each teammate monitored their AI.

Somebody who does not car will vastly outperform your output. By orders of magnitude. With the current unicorn chasing trends, that approach tends to be more rewarded.

This produces an incentive to not actually care about the quality. Which will cause issues down the road.

I quite like using AI. I do monitor what it’s doing when I’m building something that should work for a long time. I also do total blind vibe coded scripts when they will never see production.

But for large programs that will require maintenance for years, these things can be dangerous.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#276

Post by paulddraper »

agentultra wrote: post #81
woeirua wrote: post #5

This is no different then carpentry. Yes, all furniture can now be built by machines. Some people still choose to build it by hand. Does that make them less productive? Yes. Will they ever carve furniture by hand for a business? Probably not. Can they still enjoy the act of working with the wood? Yes. If you want to code by hand, then do it! No one's stopping you. But we shouldn't pretend that you will be able to do…

I’ve heard this metaphor before and I don’t think it works well. For one, a power tool like a bandsaw is a centaur technology. I, the human, am the top half of the centaur. The tool drives around doing what I tell it to do and helping me to do the task faster (or at all in some cases). A GenAI tool is a reverse-centaur technology. The algorithm does almost all of the work. I’m the bottom half of the centaur helping t…

Would a CNC satisfy your requirements?

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#277

Post by aleph_minus_one »

parthdesai wrote: post #145
agentultra wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this metaphor before and I don’t think it works well. For one, a power tool like a bandsaw is a centaur technology. I, the human, am the top half of the centaur. The tool drives around doing what I tell it to do and helping me to do the task faster (or at all in some cases). A GenAI tool is a reverse-centaur technology. The algorithm does almost all of the work. I’m the bottom half of the centaur helping t…

My analogy is more akin to using Google Maps (or any other navigation tool). Prior to GPS and a navigation device, you would either print out the route ahead of time, and even then, you would stop at places and ask people about directions. Post Google Maps, you follow it, and then if you know there's a better route, you choose to take a different path and Google Maps will adjust the route accordingly.

Google Maps is still insanely bad for hiking and cycling, so I combine the old-fashioned map method with an outdoor GPS onto which I load a precomputed GPX track for the route that I want to take.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#278

Post by aleph_minus_one »

davewritescode wrote: post #114
agentultra wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this metaphor before and I don’t think it works well. For one, a power tool like a bandsaw is a centaur technology. I, the human, am the top half of the centaur. The tool drives around doing what I tell it to do and helping me to do the task faster (or at all in some cases). A GenAI tool is a reverse-centaur technology. The algorithm does almost all of the work. I’m the bottom half of the centaur helping t…

Have you never run a team of software engineers as a lead? Agentic coding comes naturally to a lot of people because that's PRECISELY what you do when you're leading a team, herding multiple brains to point them in the same direction so when you combine all their work it becomes something that is greater than the sum of it's parts. Lots of the complains about agents sound identical to things I've heard and even said…

> Have you never run a team of software engineers as a lead?

I expect juniors to improve fast to get really good. AI is incapable of applying the teaching that I expcect juniors to internalize to any future code that it writes.

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#279

Post by aleph_minus_one »

dasil003 wrote: post #143
sgarland wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I don’t understand: why highly-paid SWEs seem to think that their salaries will remain the same (if they even still have a job) if their role is now a glorified project manager.

Architects and engineers are not construction workers. AI can build the thing but it needs to be told exactly what to build by someone who knows how software works. I’ve spent enough time working with cross-functional stakeholders to know that the vast majority of PM (whether of the product, program, or project variety), will not be capable of running AI towards any meaningful software development goal. At best they…

> AI can build the thing but it needs to be told exactly what to build by someone who knows how software works.

If AI was following my instructions instead of ignoring them, and after complaining telling me it is sorry, and returns some other implementation which also fails to follow my instructions ... :-(

Re: I am happier writing code by hand

#280

Post by hackable_sand »

FeteCommuniste wrote: post #208
panzi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have to become a factory worker I'm going to look for another job.

On the assembly line: "What did you used to do?" "Programming. You?" "I was a lawyer."

This is literally my reality
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