I try not to put much stock in black-and-white opinions because I think the answer is rarely that simple.
C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
11–20 of 217 posts
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#12None of the alternatives have stability. What was exemplary & idiomatic rust pre-pandemic would be churlish & rejected now and the toolchain use would be different anyway. Carpenters, plumbers, masons & electricians work on houses 3-300 yrs old, navigate the range of legacy styles & tech they encounter, and predictably get good outcomes. Only C has, yet, given use that level of serviceability. C99, baby, why pay more…
Having just finished renovating a 140-year-old home with solid brick walls that was slowly collapsing and deteriorating due to the aforementioned professionals’ application of modern and chemically incompatible materials to it… I’m not sure I agree. It’s also why a lot of the UK’s building stock is slowly rotting with black mould right now. Literally none of the professionals I hired, before I trained them, knew how to properly repair a type of home that represents 30% of the UK building stock.
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
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Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
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It is exactly as you describe.
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#15I always thought that C was a stepping stone to learn other languages. Like Pascal, it was educational to learn. My Comp Sci courses in 1986-1990 used Turbo Pascal and Turbo C.
I think so to, for most devs C is like Latin, or Roman Law, not something we develop and use, but rather something we learn for context and to understand future developments.
There's some people that still develop on C for sure, but it's limited to FOSS and embedded at this point, Low Level proprietary systems having migrated to C++ or Rust mostly.
I agree with the main thesis that C isn't a language like the others, something that we practice, that it's mostly an ancient but highly influential language, and it's an API/ABI.
What I disagree with is that 'critiquing' C is productive in the same way that critiquing Roman Law or Latin or Plato is productive, the horse is dead, one might think they are being clever or novel for finding flaws in the dead horse, but it's more often a defense mechanism to justify having a hard time learning the decades of backwards compatibility, edge cases and warts that have been developed.
It's easier to think of the previous generation as being dumb and having made mistakes that could have been fixed, and that it all could be simpler, rather than recognize that engineering is super complex and that we might as well dedicate our full life to learning this craft and still not make a dent.
I applaud the new generation for taking on this challenge and giving their best shot at the revolution, but I'm personally thinking of bridging the next-next generation and the previous generation of devs, the historical complexity of the field will increase linearly with time and I think if we pace ourselves we can keep the complexity down, and the more times we hop unto a revolution that disregards the previous generation as dumb, the bigger the complexity is going to be.
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#16It’s weird how whiny this post is. Like there’s zero intellectual curiosity about why C got this way, and why C gets to be the foundation for how systems software is written. I could write a whole essay about why, but now isn’t the time. I’m just going to enjoy the fact that TFA and the author don’t get it.
> why C gets to be the foundation for how systems software is written.
Is there an answer here more interesting than "it's what Unix and Windows were written in, so that's how programs talked to the OS, and once you have an interface, it's impossible to change"?
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
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I think we can be accomodating of a wide array of diagnosable mental conditions in software. I'm thinking of Terry King's TempleOS, Ken Reitz's Requests.
Being upfront about it by authors dispels a lot of the potential tension and substantially changes the way we interact. I understand there may be a conflict and not everyone will want to advertise their diagnosis, but in my experience once it becomes clear that's what's going on, it helps all the parties involved.
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#18It’s weird how whiny this post is. Like there’s zero intellectual curiosity about why C got this way, and why C gets to be the foundation for how systems software is written. I could write a whole essay about why, but now isn’t the time. I’m just going to enjoy the fact that TFA and the author don’t get it.
> why C gets to be the foundation for how systems software is written. Is there an answer here more interesting than "it's what Unix and Windows were written in, so that's how programs talked to the OS, and once you have an interface, it's impossible to change"?
It wasn't a coincidence, or an accident. C was specifically designed to write Unix, by people who had experience with a lot of other computer languages, and had programmed other operating systems including Multics and some earlier versions of Unix. They knew exactly what they were doing, and exactly what they wanted.
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#19I really don't understand why people keep misunderstanding this post so badly. It's not a complaint about C as a programming language. It's a complaint that, due to so much infrastructure being implemented in C, anyone who wants to interact with that infrastructure is forced to deal with some of the constraints of C. C has moved beyond merely being a programming language and become the most common interface for in-process interoperability between languages[1], and that means everyone working at that level needs to care about C even if they have no intention of writing C.
It's understandable how we got here, but it's an entirely legitimate question - could things be better if we had an explicitly designed interoperability interface? Given my experiences with cgo, I'd be pretty solidly on the "Fuck yes" side of things.
(Of course, any such interface would probably end up being designed by committee and end up embodying chunks of ALGOL ABI or something instead, so this may not be the worst possible world but that doesn't mean we have to like it)
[1] I absolutely buy the argument that HTTP probably wins out for out of process
Re: C isn't a programming language anymore (2022)
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
> why C gets to be the foundation for how systems software is written. Is there an answer here more interesting than "it's what Unix and Windows were written in, so that's how programs talked to the OS, and once you have an interface, it's impossible to change"?
It wasn't a coincidence, or an accident. C was specifically designed to write Unix, by people who had experience with a lot of other computer languages, and had programmed other operating systems including Multics and some earlier versions of Unix. They knew exactly what they were doing, and exactly what they wanted.
I'm not sure what you mean by "coincidence" or "accident" here.
C is a pretty OK language for writing an OS in the 70s. UNIX got popular for reasons I think largely orthogonal to being written in C. UNIX was one of the first operating systems that was widely licensed to universities. Students were obliged to learn C to work with it.
If the Macintosh OS had come out first and taken over the world, we'd probably all be programming in Object Pascal.
When everyone wanted to program for the web, we all learned JavaScript regardless of its merits or lack thereof.
I don't think there's much very interesting about C beyond the fact that it rode a platform's coattails to popularity. If there is something interesting about it that I'm missing, I'd definitely like to know.