Live data from Hacker News

AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

jasonwillems.com

61–70 of 138 posts

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#61

Personally I feel that the excessive duration of copyright just weakens authors arguments against AI. If even WWII-era documents are still under copyright, building a model respecting that would be impossible.

> Personally I feel that the excessive duration of copyright just weakens authors arguments against AI.

That excess exists precisely because of the industry’s clout. For decades, rightsholders successfully lobbied Congress to extend copyright term again and again. That process appears to have finally plateaued, which is why early Mickey Mouse has now entered the public domain.

And notably, since the rise of AI, the government has not been especially quick or eager to step in and defend rightsholders.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#62
post #27

Basically a rage bait. If the law was bad, does it make it okay to violate it? In fact Anthropic is literally paying $1.5B on the copyright settlement, that indicates its completely a settled issue that AI companies have been violating this law. Some have been caught and fined, others are been lucky or that influence over the government. > Copyright Law Was Built for Human Scale No where in the law it has this kinda…

> If the law was bad, does it make it okay to violate it? Yes.

More than yes. It's commendable.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#63
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the law was bad, does it make it okay to violate it? Yes.

(I know these days it feels silly to bring this up, but...) That is not how the separation of power is supposed to work. If a law is bad, politics (preferably a democratic process representing the people) replaces the law with a better one. Until the new law comes into effect, everyone is supposed to abide by the old law, even if it's bad.

Laws are created for lobbyist not people. Nothing works in the real world like in the text book democracy. Everything that was written about democracy is as naive as young adults fiction. But I find it refreshing that the real world events finally force more and more people to realize that.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#64

laws that were already broken can still be broken. AI exposed how broken copyright law was. AI companies also broke (and continue to break) that law

I think the problem is that “transformation” has never been clearly defined in copyright law, and that ambiguity is exactly what AI companies lean on in their defense.

At a human scale, those boundaries get clarified through litigation on a case by case basis once an infringement becomes large or obvious enough. But there has always been a gray area around when a derivative work crosses the line into infringement.

And AI didn’t create that ambiguity, it just pushed it to a more extreme scale

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be looking at a small time horizon. What about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists ?

Let's not forget the death of Aaron Swartz.

Jstor is a tech company?

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#66

Copyright infringement use to be the absolute worst crime imaginable if you asked the tech industry, that is until they started doing it themselves at scale and now they are claiming it’s the law that’s broken, it’s crazy.

I think this is part of a recurring pattern in tech of pushing boundaries around copyright.

In the last few years, we had Google scanning books, Google threatening to shut down News in Canada rather than pay publishers, LLMs summarizing articles on social platforms, crawlers bypassing paywalls, and so on.

Each time, the industry frames it as their interpretation of the current law, which were usually not written with these specific future use cases in mind.

In my view the current discussion regarding Gen AI is similar.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't do something which looks reasonable within the laws, it means that the laws have to change. Then change the law. For everyone , consistently, not just massive AI companies. Until then, deal with it . > I don't see how building such a model of historical documents would impact the authors It impacts the authors of new documents, who do not get to copy those historical documents, while an AI competing wi…

I'm personally in favor of a heavily reduced copyright duration similar to patents and so if AI makes people realize how stupid the current laws look, I take it.

That'd be fine if AI waited for the law to change, rather than just breaking it and trying to grow fast enough to make countries scared to enforce their own laws against it.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#68
post #56

In the past, many developers were against copyright law because they saw it as a way for big corps to stifle competition and curb creativity in order to increase their profits. A lot of people right now invoke the violation of the same copyright law because the tide has changed and now companies, by ignoring copyright law, are hurting artists/smaller companies and/or not contributing back or unlawfully closing the co…

Well, no, not really - there's no "they" in general. Copyright law is constructed by design for large institutions, lobbying, case law, and attendant legislation allow it to be abused by data hoarders. It was never built to protect individual creators or authors or artists, despite the PR campaigns and marketing for it.

There are just companies big enough to ignore those institutions for which copyright law was created, like Google, etc, and the fair use exceptions Google carved out empowered AI companies to make similar moves. To an extent.

What's hurting artists and smaller companies and various licensing schemes intended to push back is the fundamental structure of the laws.

All copyrights need to be nuked and replaced. If we want to support individuals and maximize protections of individuals, and we want to disincentivize data hoarders that do nothing but recycle old content and IP in perpetual rent-seeking schemes, we should implement a 5 year copyright system.

The first 5 years, you get total copyright, any commercial use has to be licensed explicitly, fair use remains largely as it is now. From year 6-10, fair use gets extended - you have to credit the creator, pay a 15% royalty direct to the creator, but otherwise you can use it for anything. Year 10-20, you must credit the creator, but otherwise the media is in the public domain.

We should be pushing for and incentivizing creative use of data, empowering as many people as possible to use it and riff on it and make the culture vibrant and active and free from centralizing, manipulative actors.

99% of commercial profits come from the first 5 years after any piece of media gets published - book, music, film, artwork, etc. Copyright should protect that, but after that 5 years, things open up so the price you pay in order to participate in the marketplace which the US fosters is that your content thereafter becomes available for use by anyone, and they have to pay a fair markup for the use. You don't get to deny anyone the use of the media. You'll get credited, paid, and then after 10 years, it's public domain + mandatory credits, kinda like an MIT license style. After 20 years, it's fully public domain.

Throw in things like "if you're not paid the royalty, you can sue for up to half of the total revenues generated by the offending work" or something appropriately scaled to prohibit casual abuses, but not totally explode someone's life over honest mistakes, and scale between the two extremes accordingly.

Things like Sony and Disney and Hollywood studios are evil. They're effectively data cartels and hoarders, rarely producing anything, gatekeeping access and socializing, imposing obscene contracts on naive artists and creators, exploiting everything and everyone they touch without returning concurrent value to society. They don't deserve consideration or protection under a sane copyright system, especially in a world with gigabit internet everywhere. Screw the MAFIAA and all the people responsible for things ending up like they have.

Until then, pirate everything. If you feel an ethical obligation to pay, then do the research and send some crypto or a $20 bill in the mail to the author or creator. All sorts of people have crypto wallets, these days.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm personally in favor of a heavily reduced copyright duration similar to patents and so if AI makes people realize how stupid the current laws look, I take it.

That'd be fine if AI waited for the law to change, rather than just breaking it and trying to grow fast enough to make countries scared to enforce their own laws against it.

The people campaigning for a change previously mostly were librarians, tech enthusiasts, archivists and pirate parties, now it's megacorporations worth billions of dollars.

I have a feeling that they are going to fare better odds, the world runs on money.

Re: AI didn't break copyright law, it just exposed how broken it was

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I know these days it feels silly to bring this up, but...) That is not how the separation of power is supposed to work. If a law is bad, politics (preferably a democratic process representing the people) replaces the law with a better one. Until the new law comes into effect, everyone is supposed to abide by the old law, even if it's bad.

Laws are created for lobbyist not people. Nothing works in the real world like in the text book democracy. Everything that was written about democracy is as naive as young adults fiction. But I find it refreshing that the real world events finally force more and more people to realize that.

Yet you, like most of us, probably grew up in a democratic society (?) with a relatively high degree of freedom.

As they say: democracy may not exist, but we'll miss it when it's gone.

Post reply on HN