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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#141

Post by rubyn00bie »

crazygringo wrote: post #88
Forgeties79 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Most” people can have it and there’d still be millions (tens of millions, even over 100mill) of people who don’t. Multiple states don’t even require it. That guarantees several million people right there. I think New York is one, so well over 10mill people don’t require it. Do you seriously think most of those people are getting one anyway? Guarantee you there are millions of people without it if not tens of million…

America only has 340 million people to begin with. Then, half the population doesn't even fly in a given year. Those that do are mostly aware of the RealID requirement and either got it whenever they last renewed their driver's license, or renewed early because their DMV kept mailing them warnings about needing to do so if they wanted to fly. Yes, most people who fly either have it, or are getting it before their nex…

There’s quite a bit of evidence to say there are still millions without one, especially depending on the state, this article is from 9 months ago:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-id-deadline-weeks-away-mos...

I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one. I certainly do not believe there are increased costs associated with my existing ID, that would be alleviated with a Real ID. At no point have I ever heard Real ID exists to reduce costs (though if that’s true, I’d love to read how). IMHO it may not be a “cash grab,” but it’s certainly punitive. And, for what it’s worth, there have been no extra steps I’ve had to take or increased screening when using my existing ID for the past year. Same photo machine, same scanner, as everyone else.

I will personally just renew my passport to avoid the fee until I need to renew my drivers license.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#142

Post by StillBored »

aboardRat4 wrote: post #55

In the USA it is possible to fly without an ID?

There are whole catagories of people without "ID" as such, like say underage children or people unable to drive. ID's in the USA have traditionally been either drivers licenses or passports. Many states have added non-drivers license IDs for handicapped, elderly, etc, but AFAIK they aren't particularly popular since those catagories of people don't tend to need them until they suddenly find themselves in a situation needing one.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#143

Post by kube-system »

beeflet wrote: post #75
lateforwork wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $45 pays for extra checks and scrutiny.

what the fuck extra checks and scrutiny could they possibly need? They already go through an x-ray machine and get molested before we get on the plane, "real ID" or not.

There are more criteria to get through security than "not carrying prohibited items". Several of those are dependent on identity, which is why they verify identity.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#144

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

anonymars wrote: post #9
rbbydotdev wrote: post #5

> Requiring ID won’t make us safer, but it enables surveillance and potential control of our movements.

Remember that you can opt out of TSA's facial recognition https://www.ajl.org/campaigns/fly

And exactly what good does that do? The government already has your face tied to your ID and knows you’re flying

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#145

Post by deepsun »

jacobgkau wrote: post #135
deepsun wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RealID is unrelated to citizenship. It's a proof of an address, akin to soviet-style "propiska", which was very important and hard to get without (it also affected ownership/inheritance). What's more fun is that even though they accept different types of residence, they mostly trust utility bills -- but to set up utilities on your name even for your personal home utility company will ask a lot of documents, including…

It's hardly proof of address. At best, I'd say it's proof of state residency. I've moved several times since getting my Colorado driver's license (a REAL ID). Technically, you are supposed to submit a change-of-address form to the DMV online within 30 days of moving. They don't send you a new card when you do that; the official procedure is to stick a piece of paper with your new address written on it to your existin…

I certainly got a new plastic ID card within 2 weeks after filing the change-of-address form on DMV website, with a new address on it. They sent it to the new address. But mine was not RealID compliant (nor before nor after).

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#146

Post by mothballed »

crazygringo wrote: post #138
mothballed wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and the law in most states requires only that you give your name and possibly your DOB to the authorities upon detainment. So as a purely academic exercise, what can they even do if you refuse to answer beyond that? Obviously in practice they will fuck with you or just straight up violate the constitution, but theoretically I'm unsure how they can continue to seize you after that.

...they don't let you fly. They can't detain you (if you're not otherwise some kind of suspect, and you're not trying to assault them or sprint past security or anything), but they don't let you fly.

... if you aren't detained you are free to go. And if you are free to go, you are free to stay, unless the property owner has trespassed you. TSA doesn't own the airport, at least in my state. So how can they trespass you from the airport or otherwise continue to detain you from moving forward?

I mean, I know you're right, and I know you will always lose if you try, but I don't understand the legal basis.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#147

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

StillBored wrote: post #139
calmbonsai wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an absolute "right to travel" (see the 14th amendment and other cases as recently as 1999), but you're also absolutely correct that "common carriers" can can refuse commercial service and you can be criminally trespassed from an airport, BUT TSA can not charge you a fee to attempt to fly.

But the airlines don't really give a crap, southwest started basically as an air bus, show up buy a ticket get on. No reservation, no id, nothing. The airlines don't even check ID most of the time with these electronic boarding passes if your not checking luggage.

If you are flying domestically, the airline doesn’t care. They know that someone bought a ticket to get pass security and that ticket matched the ID of the person who got through security. They don’t lose money and thier is no increased safety risk.

They do check your ID for international flights

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#148

Post by jfengel »

thyrsus wrote: post #35

Explain to me how qualified immunity is better than any ill it is supposed to address? And how is it that if you sue the government and win, then the judgement doesn't automatically award reasonable legal fees?

The ill that it's supposed to address is people hassling government officials who are just doing their jobs. Their jobs require them to do things that people don't want them to do, like making you pay taxes or go to jail for committing crimes. They are prominent targets and can easily spend their entire career fighting off complaints.

Of course that promptly shifts the potential for abuse in the other direction. Supposedly, democracy is the control over that. If they are abusing their office, you vote them out. (Or you vote out the elected official supervising them, such as a mayor or sheriff.)

It actually does work out most of the time. The cases of abuse are really few and far between. But in a country of 300 million, "few and far between" is somebody every single day, and a decent chance that it's you at some point.

That said, it should be zero, and there's good reason to think that for every offender you see there are dozens or hundreds of people complicit in allowing it. The theory I outlined above can only handle so many decades of concerted abuses before they become entrenched as part of the system. At which point it may be impossible to restore it without resetting everything to zero and starting over.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#149

Post by crazygringo »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #141
crazygringo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America only has 340 million people to begin with. Then, half the population doesn't even fly in a given year. Those that do are mostly aware of the RealID requirement and either got it whenever they last renewed their driver's license, or renewed early because their DMV kept mailing them warnings about needing to do so if they wanted to fly. Yes, most people who fly either have it, or are getting it before their nex…

There’s quite a bit of evidence to say there are still millions without one, especially depending on the state, this article is from 9 months ago: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-id-deadline-weeks-away-mos... I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one. I certainly do not believe there are increased costs associ…

> I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one.

I guess that's because you haven't renewed your driver's license yet?

I did last year, precisely because I had to fly, and had to bring a bunch of new documentation I never needed for my previous driver's licenses, including, yes, multiple proofs of both citizenship and residency, and then had to go through a whole additional process because of a slight name discrepancy between documents that they had to get a supervisor to make a judgment call on. It's a totally different verification process that is actually quite meaningfully different.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#150

Post by rngfnby »

anonymars wrote: post #9
rbbydotdev wrote: post #5

> Requiring ID won’t make us safer, but it enables surveillance and potential control of our movements.

Remember that you can opt out of TSA's facial recognition https://www.ajl.org/campaigns/fly

I tried but they lied and told me it wasn't an option.

So I told them the sign above me said it was.

So she lied and told me my ID had to be issued within the past year (mine was 14 mo. old).

So I asked to speak to her manager.

So she told me to step aside and lied that she'd call her manager.

After waiting five minutes looking at her not call the manager, I started whistling the anthem, loudly, at a crowded major city airport.

The manager rushed over.

He asked what the problem was, and asked to see my ID. So he sounded it into the scanner triggering my picture.

He pretended that that was a mistake. So I told him he was really cute piece of work.

I filled a complaint with the TSA.

They answered that they took the incident very seriously and never followed up.

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