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The Great College Hoax
51–60 of 139 posts
Re: The Great College Hoax
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
I live in CA and am struggling at just under 6 figures. Childcare and Mortgage on an (average 500K) home is the majority of my salary. Here is the problem. With over 80% of my net going to living expenses, there is no extra 2800 to go to school loans. Thank heavens I have no loans, just have to pay my wife's off....
Wouldn't you say that a large part of a mortgage payment is actually an investment? If you were faced with large student loan payments, you could just decide to rent rather than take on a huge investment. Again, I don't see the problem.
I'm wondering if you had a straight face on when you said "a large part of the mortgage payment is an investment". Either way: if they want to build a family, the rent vs. mortgage decision isn't going to change the equation much. Again, assume they have a kid. They have to factor in:
* Commute distance, which will determine how often they actually see their children.
* Lease security; it is extremely traumatic to move a school-age child to a new school district, or even just a new school.
* School quality: the places with the best rental stock are not necessarily places with acceptable public school, or accessible child care.
Again: the article's claim isn't that a couple can't survive on 200k. It's that they couldn't stay married. I can see reasons why.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
It should extend to all because we all benefit from a more educated population. Better educated people less likely to elect another Bush, for one, but they're also more likely to end up doing high value jobs, rather than working in a McJob (which, while an honourable duty, isn't exactly on the same level as working for a start-up or a biotechnology firm). Allowing people the opportunity to reach their full potential,…
..but someone has to end up working at McDonald's - and I think it'd probably be better if that person hadn't wasted $80k getting a degree they will never use in a subject they may not even like or really understand and have almost no hope of paying back the loan. We can't have exclusively high paying jobs and expect the economy to survive. Not everyone is cut out for intellectual work that requires a degree nor does…
The choice isn't between college and McDonalds. For instance, I don't have a degree.
Education is valuable, but it's far from proven that college is.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#54> a bachelor's degree in history Strike one. > took out $60,000 in student loans Strike two. College isn't a bad idea. Majoring in subjects that lead to careers with more job seekers than jobs and taking out student loans is are bad ideas.
Note that both were on the law school track, and in fact both made it to law school. If this was their intention all along, taking, say, an engineering degree would have been pointless - you pay even more in tuition.
Taking out $60,000 in loans to go to law school of all places is not such a bad idea. Your pay after graduation would certainly make it worthwhile, and they both are making $100K+ a year.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…
I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr. Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not eve…
I should have qualified and said this was Kansas City. $110k definitely can raise a family there. It's not exactly the carefree level of money, but when the average house costs $185k, it's no where near 'lower middle class'.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes it's a lot of money, but it also leaves them with a lot of money left every month. I don't know exactly what your net income in CA on 200k is (and if they filed jointly, etc), but they should take home at least 10k a month. They still have 7k a month to live on. I don't see the problem.
Assume they're living in a house and they have one child. Then: $2800 for loans. $3500 for mortage and escrow. $1300 for child care (both work). $1000 for food and day-to-day living expenses. $1000 for utilities, Internet, services and recurring expenses --- parking, commute, health care copay and (with most employers) dependent coverage, etc. I get $9600. Survivable? Of course. You can clearly survive in America wit…
I appreciate your breakdown, and your post below about how its harder to rent with a family.
I still think it's ridiculous. I'm not going to go into a point by point rundown because it would take a lot of space and fork the argument several times, but basically I feel that if you ran these numbers by most Americans they would first laugh out loud, then get a little angry.
You seem to think access to top schools and a luxurious lifestyle are prerequisites for a marriage. Empirically, this is false.
That's looking at this situation WITH children. Once you take the children out, as was true with the original case, it gets even more ridiculous. They no longer have such a case for a mortgage and even if they do keep it, they can put away about 1500 a month by not feeding and babysitting a kid.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…
I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr. Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not eve…
You can easily commute from Jersey to Manhattan, make student loan payments and raise a child on $110k/yr. I did the first two on only $20,000/year (though I admit, my loans were a lot more sensible than those of the couple described in this article).
You could also live on $110k manhattan if you are willing to live north of 111th st. A 2br 2bath up there ran $2100/month back during the bubble (less now).
Re: The Great College Hoax
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Assume they're living in a house and they have one child. Then: $2800 for loans. $3500 for mortage and escrow. $1300 for child care (both work). $1000 for food and day-to-day living expenses. $1000 for utilities, Internet, services and recurring expenses --- parking, commute, health care copay and (with most employers) dependent coverage, etc. I get $9600. Survivable? Of course. You can clearly survive in America wit…
I appreciate your breakdown, and your post below about how its harder to rent with a family. I still think it's ridiculous. I'm not going to go into a point by point rundown because it would take a lot of space and fork the argument several times, but basically I feel that if you ran these numbers by most Americans they would first laugh out loud, then get a little angry. You seem to think access to top schools and a…
Let's you and I be clear: I agree with you that 2.8k/mo is not a dealbreaking debt load for a couple with a joint income of 200k. I'm just suggesting that, on the story's own terms, it clearly could be: their marriage could have easily broken up because that (large) amount of debt was incompatible with their life plan.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class , then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slight…
I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr. Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not eve…
Median household income income in the US 48,000 USD (2006).
Let's say you get to keep 1/2 of the 60,000 per year over that for rent. That's easily 2,500 extra rent to cover living close to Manhattan / San Francisco over the national average and you probably don't need a car. The secret is to avoid Starbucks and other expensive things that are not part of the normal middle class lifestyle but seem so important to yuppies.
Re: The Great College Hoax
#60"Accepted into the California Western School of Law, a private San Diego institution, Kellum couldn't swing the $36,000 in annual tuition with financial aid and part-time work." That choice of a law school was probably crucial in how the story unfolded. That's not a law school with a high return on investment in that local job market.
Article states that he and his wife landed six figure salaries, but graduated with 194k in debt. I think more crucial to how the story unfolded is that they probably didn't live below their means, probably didn't consolidate the loans to a lower rate (they were paying rates at 9%-12%), and probably didn't pay the loan off aggressively. I wouldn't blame going to college, or college choice for poor financial sense.
I referred to return on investment because there are other law schools in California
a) with lower list price (and thus lower total cost of attendance)
and
b) even higher prestige (thus making a higher starting salary even more likely).
They started out with reasonably good starting salaries, but unreasonably high levels of student debt.