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Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

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Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#21

Post by shawnc »

notatoad wrote: post #12
walru wrote: post #4

I went to go use a Windows 8 PC at Best Buy the other day and was shocked. In screenshots everything looks clean, crisp, and modern - then comes the task of using it. I don't understand who at MSFT thought it was necessary to preface every action by a splash screen and inordinately long loading times. Also, am I missing something? Does everything you do have to be full screen? Is having multiple windows open and mult…

You should watch some average users use the computer some time. Multi-tasking is very much a power-user feature, most people maximize everything - even things that have no business being maximized. Users will maximize a browser window, and then complain about all the white-space to either side of a column of text. And then they'll maximize their skype contacts list or something similarly narrow, and complain about ho…

I can attest to this - any average user I witness using a computer, maximizes everything. And then minimizes. And then maximizes. And exactly that, complains about wasted space.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#22

Post by neovive »

I think Windows 8 is a long-term proposition for Microsoft. I doubt they are expecting any remarkable change in the short term; there just won't be enough compelling Win8/touch-enabled devices out there to make a difference. They need to grow market share over time. They are practically giving away the upgrade to consumer users which a big change from the past.

This is similar to the early XBOX strategy, which took quite a while to come to fruition, but the XBOX division is now doing very well in terms of market/mind share.

Microsoft clearly wants to enterprise market and that takes time.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#23

Post by elarkin »

jjcm wrote: post #17
walru wrote: post #4

I went to go use a Windows 8 PC at Best Buy the other day and was shocked. In screenshots everything looks clean, crisp, and modern - then comes the task of using it. I don't understand who at MSFT thought it was necessary to preface every action by a splash screen and inordinately long loading times. Also, am I missing something? Does everything you do have to be full screen? Is having multiple windows open and mult…

I've been using it as my primary OS on both my home and work desktop (as well as on several tablets - I work for Microsoft) for about the last year. The biggest issue I had with it at first was my perspective on what the native environment is. If you treat the metro home screen as the native environment, and the desktop as a secondary environment, your desktop experience wont be pleasant. While it's fine and dandy to…

Isn't Microsoft pushing Metro as the primary environment and the desktop as a legacy environment?

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#24

Post by elarkin »

jjcm wrote: post #19
gvnonor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 8 only makes sense on tablet/laptop hybrids. I think you'll feel differently about the usability of the system once you get to try it out on newer devices that are coming out. Here's an interesting article about one such device http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/9/3475334/acer-iconia-w510-p...

Disagree. Up front warning - I work for MS. I've been using it on my desktop as my primary OS for a while now and I heavily prefer it over win7. The keyboard launching functionality is what sells it for me, and honestly I become pretty frustrated when using win7 now because of it. It's still the same OS, just with a different way of launching programs. Coming from a CLI/vim background, I really appreciate how keyboar…

I have yet to see a typical user use keyboard shortcuts. My mother, for example, will still use the mouse to click File then Quit/Exit when she wants to close a program.

Your testimony tells me that Win8 may see better adoption amongst windows programmers than windows users.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#25

Post by drhowarddrfine »

Maascamp wrote: post #13
walru wrote: post #4

I went to go use a Windows 8 PC at Best Buy the other day and was shocked. In screenshots everything looks clean, crisp, and modern - then comes the task of using it. I don't understand who at MSFT thought it was necessary to preface every action by a splash screen and inordinately long loading times. Also, am I missing something? Does everything you do have to be full screen? Is having multiple windows open and mult…

On the other hand, I also design software for a living and despite having used it a large number of times I still find OSX to be (for me) a usability nightmare. I just don't know how to do anything and find the interface completely counterintuitive. Windows 8 seems just like Windows 7 with an extra layer and I found Windows 7 to be extremely usable. It's all pretty subjective.

Hm. I never used OSX till my son bought one six months ago and I had no problems at all figuring it out. Yes, it's different than Windows but, a 'usability nightmare'? Far from it.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#26

Post by spion »

shawnc wrote: post #21
notatoad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should watch some average users use the computer some time. Multi-tasking is very much a power-user feature, most people maximize everything - even things that have no business being maximized. Users will maximize a browser window, and then complain about all the white-space to either side of a column of text. And then they'll maximize their skype contacts list or something similarly narrow, and complain about ho…

I can attest to this - any average user I witness using a computer, maximizes everything. And then minimizes. And then maximizes. And exactly that, complains about wasted space.

This is because overlapping window managers are fiddly. Moving around overlapping windows feels cluttered and unclean (yes, even with the feature to snap them to the left/right half of the screen).

Proper tiling+tabbed window managers (e.g. i3) are much better at organizing screen space in a clean way. You can split the screen into window holders. Each window holder can be tabbed or stacked. Essentially what you get is the ability to split your monitor into multiple smaller monitors. Makes a lot more sense than the jumbled overlapping mess.

See http://i3wm.org/screenshots/

edit: here is a rather impressive screenshot that demonstrates the power of the tiling-tabbed/stacking concept: http://i3wm.org/screenshots/#/screenshots/i3-2.png

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#27

Post by freehunter »

walru wrote: post #4

I went to go use a Windows 8 PC at Best Buy the other day and was shocked. In screenshots everything looks clean, crisp, and modern - then comes the task of using it. I don't understand who at MSFT thought it was necessary to preface every action by a splash screen and inordinately long loading times. Also, am I missing something? Does everything you do have to be full screen? Is having multiple windows open and mult…

>Does everything you do have to be full screen?

No. You can have two apps open side by side.

>Is having multiple windows open and multi-tasking a thing of the past?

According to the tablet market leaders (Apple and Google), yes. BTW the desktop still supports this for power users. Other comments have pointed out that non-power users likely won't care about this issue.

>I know I'm coming from a place of ignorance... I'm sure I don't quite understand how to use the OS... I design software for a living.

And herein lies the bigger issue. You're used to the old way. You're comfortable with the old way. You like the old way. So do I. That's not a bad thing, and Microsoft left in the desktop for people like you and me (and most others on this forum). Nothing has changed there. I run Windows 8 on my laptop and spend 99% of my time on the desktop like it's Windows 7 with some nice new features added on (and a better security model).

However, a great number of computer users seem to prefer the simplistic style of iOS or Android. It lets them focus on one task using a very simple menu to get from one app to another. They don't need multiple windows overlapping each other, and they don't need tiling window managers. They don't want multiple open windows distracting them. This is why the iPad was made, this is why Android tablets are made, and this is why Windows 8 and Windows RT were made.

For us, we'll complain about the limitations of the Metro UI then switch to the desktop and forget about it. For them, they'll stick to the RT components, possibly momentarily confused by the drastic change from Windows 7 to Windows 8, then settle in and forget they're using a PC. That's probably a good thing. The last thing these users need is their personal IT guy going on and on about how Windows 8 is awful and the RT components are awful and it shouldn't be used. How long have we all spent trying to teach our parents/grandparents how to get around in Outlook and Firefox, writing down a list of steps they'll need to take to get to their email, or how to bring up the new picture of their grandkids? I actually bought my grandma an iPad so I wouldn't need to do remote support over the phone anymore. 5 minutes of instruction and she was ready to go.

I think RT will be a good thing for your average user. I think it will be a mild grumbling point for power users, deserving no where near the current amount of vitriol spewed on the Internet. Think of the RT stuff as an iPad built into (and complimenting rather than replacing) your desktop. You don't have to use it.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#28

Post by aes256 »

elarkin wrote: post #23
jjcm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using it as my primary OS on both my home and work desktop (as well as on several tablets - I work for Microsoft) for about the last year. The biggest issue I had with it at first was my perspective on what the native environment is. If you treat the metro home screen as the native environment, and the desktop as a secondary environment, your desktop experience wont be pleasant. While it's fine and dandy to…

Isn't Microsoft pushing Metro as the primary environment and the desktop as a legacy environment?

This is my understanding; it's based on the assumption that touchscreen devices are the future of computing.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#29

Post by freehunter »

spion wrote: post #26
shawnc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can attest to this - any average user I witness using a computer, maximizes everything. And then minimizes. And then maximizes. And exactly that, complains about wasted space.

This is because overlapping window managers are fiddly. Moving around overlapping windows feels cluttered and unclean (yes, even with the feature to snap them to the left/right half of the screen). Proper tiling+tabbed window managers (e.g. i3) are much better at organizing screen space in a clean way. You can split the screen into window holders. Each window holder can be tabbed or stacked. Essentially what you get…

I would disagree with that. My personal experience tells me that users shun multiple windows not because the WM is fiddly, but because the others windows distract them from the content of the window they're focusing on. Working tech support, I've had many users ask which window to type something into when there are multiple windows open, regardless of the fact that there is only one window we've been working with.

Anecdotal evidence maybe, but I don't see any facts backing up either side.

Re: Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it?

#30

Post by meaty »

shawnc wrote: post #21
notatoad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should watch some average users use the computer some time. Multi-tasking is very much a power-user feature, most people maximize everything - even things that have no business being maximized. Users will maximize a browser window, and then complain about all the white-space to either side of a column of text. And then they'll maximize their skype contacts list or something similarly narrow, and complain about ho…

I can attest to this - any average user I witness using a computer, maximizes everything. And then minimizes. And then maximizes. And exactly that, complains about wasted space.

Power user here. I do this as well and use Alt-Tab to switch between the windows. I tend to prefer lower resolution screens as well (typing this on a 1280x800 screen on Windows 8 Pro).

Windows 8 and ironically Metro are actually very keyboard friendly. I can imagine if I get hold of a surface pro unit, I'll probably be entirely happy with a touch screen, keyboard and stylus and do away with the mouse.

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