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US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

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Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#181
The reality that most encryption enthusiasts need to accept is that true E2EE where keys don’t leave on-device HSMs leads to terrible UX — your messages are bound to individual devices. You’re forced to do local backups. If you lose your phone, your important messages are gone. Lay users don’t like this and don’t want this, generally.

Everything regarding encrypted messaging is downstream of the reality that it’s better for UX for the app developer to own the keys. Once developers have the keys, they’re going to be compelled by governments to provide them when warrants are issued. Force and violence, not mathematical proofs, are the ultimate authority.

It’s fun to get into the “conspiratorial” discussions, like where the P-256 curve constants came from or whether the HSMs have backdoors. Ultimately, none of that stuff matters. Users don’t want their messages to go poof when their phone breaks, and governments will compel you to change whatever bulletproof architecture you have to better serve their warrants.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#182
post #179

This was slid off the first page of HN so quickly. As someone wisely pointed out in this thread, the reason Facebook is doing this is: "it's for favor trading and leverage at the highest levels."

It set off the flamewar detector, which is the usual reason that happens.

We'll either turn off that software penalty or merge the thread into a submission of the original Bloomberg source - these things take a bit of time to sort through!

Edit: thread merged from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46836487 now.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#183
post #179

This was slid off the first page of HN so quickly. As someone wisely pointed out in this thread, the reason Facebook is doing this is: "it's for favor trading and leverage at the highest levels."

Just came here after seeing it in the Guardian and really disappointed it's not on the front page. Telling.

Telling in what way?

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#184

WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption has been independently investigated: https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/ws/files/324396471/whatsapp.pdf Full version here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2025/794.pdf We didn't review the entire source code, only the cryptographic core. That said, the main issue we found was that the WhatsApp servers ultimately decide who is and isn't in a particular chat. Dan Goodin wrote about it here: https://arst…

Thank you for actually evaluating the technology as implemented instead of speculating wildly about what Facebook can do based on vibes.

Unfortunately a lot of investigations start out as speculation/vibes before they turn into an actual evaluation. And getting past speculation/vibes can take a lot of effort and political/social/professional capital before even starting.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#187

WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption has been independently investigated: https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/ws/files/324396471/whatsapp.pdf Full version here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2025/794.pdf We didn't review the entire source code, only the cryptographic core. That said, the main issue we found was that the WhatsApp servers ultimately decide who is and isn't in a particular chat. Dan Goodin wrote about it here: https://arst…

> We didn't review the entire source code And, you don't see the issue with that? Facebook was bypassing security measures for mobile by sending data to itself on localhost using websockets and webrtc.

https://cybersecuritynews.com/track-android-users-covertly/

An audit of 'they can't read it cryptographically' but the app can read it, and the app sends data in all directions. Push notifications can be used to read messages.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#188

Ex-WhatsApp engineer here. WhatsApp team makes so much effort to make this end to end encrypted messages possible. From the time I worked I know for sure it is not possible to read the encrypted messages. From business standpoint they don’t have to read these messages, since WhatsApp business API provide the necessary funding for the org as a whole.

It only takes one engineer in all the teams at Whatsapp that has different directives to make all your privacy work completely useless.

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#189

Whatsapp is considered insecure and banned from use for military in Russia. Telegram, on the other hand, is widely used. Of course that's not something definitive, but just a food for thought.

Telegram which famously didn't have _any_ end to end encryption for ages, and even now only has very limited opt-in "secret chats"?

Re: US has investigated claims WhatsApp chats aren't private

#190
post #84

> “We look forward to moving forward with those claims and note WhatsApp’s denials have all been carefully worded in a way that stops short of denying the central allegation in the complaint – that Meta has the ability to read WhatsApp messages, regardless of its claims about end-to-end encryption.” My money is on the chats being end to end encrypted and separately uploaded to Facebook.

>being end to end encrypted and separately uploaded to Facebook That's a cute loophole you thought up, but whatsapp's marketing is pretty unequivocal that they can't read your messages. >With end-to-end encryption on WhatsApp, your personal messages and calls are secured with a lock. Only you and the person you're talking to can read or listen to them, and no one else, not even WhatsApp https://www.whatsapp.com/ That…

"We can't read your messages! They are encrypted on disk and we don't store the keys!"

"What encryption do you use?"

"DES."

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