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L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

bbc.co.uk

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Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#21

Post by mc32 »

engtech wrote: post #12
mturmon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a story with a good background on the events. It's more complex than you would guess: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100622/full/465992a.html In particular, at least one member of the civil defense bureaucracy went out of his way to say there was a consensus that there was no danger (even though there was not such a strong consensus): "Immediately after that meeting, De Bernardinis and Barberi, acting presid…

Does anyone understand the title of Nature article? "Italy puts seismology in the dock" ? is it meant to be "in the dark" ?

The dock is where the person on trial sits. I.e put seismology on trial.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#22

Post by lbolla »

jpwagner wrote: post #2

This is unbelievable. Is there anywhere to find all of the facts? This article doesn't give background info. It took some digging to find that indeed the scientists had given a reassuring statement, though it had an expected but-we-cant-be-sure admonition, beforehand.

This is way more complex than it might appear. Italian speakers can watch this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rROgB5QMgHs&feature=playe... It shows a telephone conversation between the chief of "Protezione Civile" (responsible to react and intervene in case of catastrophes) Guido Bertolaso and a politician in the region where the earthquake happened, Daniela Stati.

Bertolaso first tells Stati that they did badly by saying the media that they didn't expect more earthquakes (as they did the day before, after a small shake that did no damage). Bertolaso added that he would fix this error with the media and send the most important scientists he knows to "quiet down" the population, upset by the previous message and by the continuous shakes. The accusation is that scientists didn't actually report what they knew, but they went in front of the media to "quiet" down the population.

Unfortunately, the day after the big earthquake happened and 309 people died.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#23

Post by patio11 »

This is crazy, but I'll note that it isn't a peculiarly Italian form of crazy. People rush to find scapegoats after every disaster. In the future, consider being as skeptical of those accusations as you were when people accused folks you identify with, like scientists.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#24

Post by drone »

engtech wrote: post #12
mturmon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a story with a good background on the events. It's more complex than you would guess: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100622/full/465992a.html In particular, at least one member of the civil defense bureaucracy went out of his way to say there was a consensus that there was no danger (even though there was not such a strong consensus): "Immediately after that meeting, De Bernardinis and Barberi, acting presid…

Does anyone understand the title of Nature article? "Italy puts seismology in the dock" ? is it meant to be "in the dark" ?

It's an idiom, often used to express "putting on trial".

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#25

Post by duiker101 »

kitsune_ wrote: post #4

I can wholeheartedly recommend a documentary called Draquila – L'Italia che trema [1] about the L'Aquila earthquake. As many of my Italian friends tell me, Italy is an absolutely corrupt shit hole. I remember a scene where they showed recordings of civil protection officials gloating about the disaster on the phone, right after it happened. They talked about the opportunity to make money [2]. The head of the national…

As an italian I can confirm this, there are many people speculating on this sad events. You can find many articles on the net about how many initiatives to send money often make those money "disappear". When the money actually arrives, the people how need to rebuild often rebuild using cheap material and take the money for them. Some of the cities hitted by quackes many years ago never really recovered and maybe after 20 years a lot of people might be living still in containers.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#26

Post by lbolla »

jivatmanx wrote: post #20
kitsune_ wrote: post #4

I can wholeheartedly recommend a documentary called Draquila – L'Italia che trema [1] about the L'Aquila earthquake. As many of my Italian friends tell me, Italy is an absolutely corrupt shit hole. I remember a scene where they showed recordings of civil protection officials gloating about the disaster on the phone, right after it happened. They talked about the opportunity to make money [2]. The head of the national…

Not all of Italy, only the South. That's why the biggest party in the north is a secessionist party. A lot of cool stuff comes out of the North, like Arduino.

This is bullshit, let me tell you. Corruption is everywhere in Italy: North AND South. Public sector AND Private sector. I am Italian, from the North, I lived in Milan for years and I am married with a woman from Rome: I know what I'm saying...

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#28

Post by louischatriot »

I can't find words strong enough to say how stupid this is. As wisty said, the good way is to build quake-proof buildings. Of course, that means fighting the Mafia which controls construction work in this part of the country, which takes more guts than judging 6 scientists.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#29

Post by mc32 »

kitsune_ wrote: post #4

I can wholeheartedly recommend a documentary called Draquila – L'Italia che trema [1] about the L'Aquila earthquake. As many of my Italian friends tell me, Italy is an absolutely corrupt shit hole. I remember a scene where they showed recordings of civil protection officials gloating about the disaster on the phone, right after it happened. They talked about the opportunity to make money [2]. The head of the national…

Whether or not the seismologists gave some kind of reassurance or not, it seems ridiculous to try them for manslaughter.

Perhaps professional incompetence or the like, but it's not as though the town would have done anything different had they said without any provable foundation "a major earthquake is imminent". Seismology is in such infancy that holding people responsible for acts of nature, which state of the art are highly unpredictable, is on the surface, ludicrous. What's next, the meteorologist on trial for getting the forecast wrong about heavy rains which cause floods and damage, etc?

It's reminiscent of the tratment of Galileo.

Re: L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

#30

Post by at-fates-hands »

ramses wrote: post #7

Unbelievable. At first I assumed that the scientists must have been out drinking, or must have made up the data ... but, no, they simply gave the best prediction they could, as they should. I guess that forecasters of quakes and weather in Italy now have two alternatives: always claim a disaster is upon them, or move to a country where judges understand statistics.

Agreed. It's a no win situation.

Where I live now, the local sports talk radio hosts always blast the weather guys when they forecast doom and gloom with an incoming snow storm, regardless of how much snow we get. Maybe it's just the "we're tough" Scandinavian culture, but they really make a mockery of the forecasts as always being overblown and sensationalist before anything happens.

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