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The Value of Things

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31–40 of 52 posts

Re: The Value of Things

#31
post #16

I love Nystrom's writing, and he's so good at it because he's written so much. A huge part of the value of things is how we grow in the making of them, and I worry that in a world where we accept generative slop, we'll never have the opportunity to woodshed enough to become excellent at a craft. I'm a good engineer because I've written tons of code, I've taken no shortcuts, and I've focused on improving over my many…

> I've written tons of code, I've taken no shortcuts, and I've focused on improving over my many iterations. This has enabled me to be an effective steward of generative coding (etc) models, but will younger engineers ever get the reps necessary to get where I am? Are there other ways to get this knowledge and taste?

I think this will be a problem in the middle term, and I've written about such deskilling before [0]. With the latest crop of foundational coding models and harnesses, and more progress on the way, I'm beginning to wonder if it will matter? If there's a future where agents are designing the code, implementing the code, and reading and reviewing the code... At that point the code is no longer the thing. "Software engineers" will continue to sit at the interface of product and software, but the software will be writing itself. Of course there will be a need for programmers who can actually read and write computer code, the same way there's a need for Fortran and compiler devs today.

The skill that all software engineers will need to learn, regardless of level, is how to leverage commoditized reasoning to build products effectively.

- how to design systems declaratively and in terms of requirements and constraints

- how to configure the systems in such a way that they're automatically testable end-to-end

- how to move tacit knowledge out of people's heads and into the context (all of our meetings will be transcribed; questions from the agent will be generated during the meeting resolve ambiguity; the agent will be an omnipresent attendee in all meetings: "Agent: The topic you're discussing overlaps with what Sally said three days ago when she met with Mike. They covered xyz..."; companies that follow remote work best practices will have an advantage here)

- how to allocate and orchestrate teams of people and agents

[0]: https://matthewbilyeu.com/blog/2025-03-08/ai

Re: The Value of Things

#32
post #2

I'm literally considering a career switch from software engineering to electrical engineering and electronics, and naturally going back to school, because the AI and the way it's used in writing software has sucked out all the meaning in it for me.

Meaningful or not, that's a lot of work and money for a pay cut, fewer options, and worse job prospects [0]. [0] Most of the new EE Grads I see go into software engineering.

That's me! I found I was treated much better in software, the timelines were much more reasonable and your input was valued. When doing firmware, typically everyone's timelines would slip but the delivery date wouldn't which meant your time with a fully functional device (if you even get one at all) would reduce. Half the time you're developing on a half-broken version of the real device

Re: The Value of Things

#33
I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficiency-if-you-want-meaning.

They talked about it with knitting: obviously, buying yarn is a time-saving efficiency compared to spinning your own, but that didn't destroy the meaning of the gift. Nevertheless, if I spent time spinning my own yarn and gifting it to my mother, I bet she would find it meaningful.

Similarly, they talk about how they could use a mechanical knitter to save time, but that would reduce the meaning. I think that depends. If I designed a beautiful pattern and then used a mechanical knitter to create a blanket, I bet my mom would find it meaningful.

The epiphany is that meaning doesn't come from how hard I work. It comes from personal relationship and how my actions interact with that relationship. If I knew my mom was looking for a specific, somewhat rare purse, and one day I happened to find it at a yard sale and give it to her, that would be a meaningful gift, regardless of how much effort it took me.

Meaning is not an intrinsic quality of objects. It is not an arrangement of atoms or a quantum field. You can't see meaning in a microscope. Meaning is only in our heads. And because it is only in our heads, AI can't destroy it.

AI is just a tool, like a mechanical knitter or a jackhammer. Sure, maybe not all tools are equally useful for creating meaning, but no one ever worried that meaning was under threat because jackhammers got invented. AI is no different.

Re: The Value of Things

#34
Let's cut through some of the noise here. We only talk about these things behause we fear becoming obsolete and losing our livelihoods.

Using the scarf example - nobody's paying you to knit it. Knitting it probably won't put food on your table. Maybe for tribal humans that kind of thing did, hence the psychological reward wiring, but not now.

Here's a reality: we do all become obsolete. It's called aging. I don't know how exactly to fit that into that puzzle, but my brain told me it's a relevant reference point, somehow.

A hiring company just wants you to make the thing with an optimal balance between quality and efficiency.

As I see it, one has a few options. A common one is just hoping everything will be okay. Often that turns out to be the case.

Another one is to proactively 'adapt or die'. Master the new way of making the thing even if it tastes bitter. Harder to do with age, but in some sense the obvious choice if you want to be competitive.

Speaking of, I think we often forget that - the world is one big competition for resources and survival. Happiness is a luxury, but we've converted it into a requirement.

I'm not saying I like any of this - I want to be secure for life following the same old patterns I've already learned as well.

But I consider that thought a comforting fantasy to be eyed with suspicion.

That said, thankfully, AI is still pretty good at enshittifying things, so I have a suspicion that one may not need to always adapt that enormously. I work with a lot of legacy software, and have seen that a lot of companies are full of old school tech debt for which hands on programming is still a must have.

Claude code or what have you is a little limited when you're writing code for obscure software packages which nobody knows the name of anymore, but on which some companies still depend for their core business logic.

Will it all dry up eventually? Sure. But slower than we expect methinks.

Re: The Value of Things

#35
post #30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...why do you think this comment is warranted?

Because programmers probably think it'll be a similar field, but it's different. It has correct and incorrect ways of doing things, strongly enforced. You're not inventing new shit, you're reapplying old shit constantly. Old shit that works. Many think writing software is engineering, but it couldn't be further from the truth. edit: to clarify, trying to get people to realize the grass isn't always greener, and both…

How many programmers-turned-X do you have experience with?

Re: The Value of Things

#36

I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficiency-if-you-want-meaning. They talked about it with knitting: obviously, buying yarn is a time-saving efficiency compared to spinning your own, but that didn't destroy the meaning of the gift. Nevertheless, if I spent time spinning my own yarn and gifting it to…

It’s interesting—playing devil’s advocate on the purse example, I’m not sure I’d actually call that meaningful. It’s certainly a kind and thoughtful gift, but meaningful?

What if meaning isn’t only about the relationship or the recipient’s satisfaction, but also about what the gift costs the giver in terms of personal value? In the yard-sale case, the purse may be rare to the mom, but it’s essentially cheap and disposable to the giver. Nothing important was surrendered.

By contrast, giving something you personally prize—or investing yourself in a way that reflects what you value—seems to carry a different kind of meaning. I’m not claiming effort alone creates meaning, but that the giver’s valuation of what’s given might be a missing dimension in this framework

Re: The Value of Things

#37

I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficiency-if-you-want-meaning. They talked about it with knitting: obviously, buying yarn is a time-saving efficiency compared to spinning your own, but that didn't destroy the meaning of the gift. Nevertheless, if I spent time spinning my own yarn and gifting it to…

Value is up to the receiver, not the giver.

The purse can be meaningful because of the implication that you remembered a small detail for an extended period of time. “Aww you remembered”. The AI equivalent would be to ask your personal assistant to find the purse for you and you keep it hidden for an extended period to pretend you remembered.

In both cases your mom will be touched by the gesture.

Re: The Value of Things

#38
Whether Nystrom realizes it or not, and I think he does, this piece is shot through with Marxist thinking on use value, exchange value, socially necessary labour time, and the general structure of capital social relations.

Capitalism has been a fantastically productive system that has also produced a great deal of labour alienation. Nystrom has a deep need to labour for those he cares about, he needs to make the scarf, slowly and badly, for his grandmother.

But the socially necessary amount of labour to make a scarf is now extremely small, and so Nystrom labours in software to earn a higher wage.

The wage doesn't fulfil him so much, because it's for labour power directed for the purpose of value valorization (aka. profit), not to help those he cares about.

He's skilled and lucky, so he has plenty of excess after labouring to poorly make a scarf. But if he does not already have plenty of capital, he has to work, and his capital has to be put to work too, on things other than badly making scarves, lest it too whither away.

Re: The Value of Things

#39
post #36

I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficiency-if-you-want-meaning. They talked about it with knitting: obviously, buying yarn is a time-saving efficiency compared to spinning your own, but that didn't destroy the meaning of the gift. Nevertheless, if I spent time spinning my own yarn and gifting it to…

It’s interesting—playing devil’s advocate on the purse example, I’m not sure I’d actually call that meaningful. It’s certainly a kind and thoughtful gift, but meaningful? What if meaning isn’t only about the relationship or the recipient’s satisfaction, but also about what the gift costs the giver in terms of personal value? In the yard-sale case, the purse may be rare to the mom, but it’s essentially cheap and dispo…

You're not wrong--there seems to be some connection between effort and meaning. But I don't think it's that simple. For example, imagine I go to Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. Meaningful? Probably not. Now imagine that I drive 8 hours across state lines to a Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. It's still not meaningful even though I made a huge effort.

The effort itself has the be meaningful! It can't be effort for effort's sake. The effort has to produce something that could not be obtained without effort. But that means it's not the effort that counts--it's getting something that could not be obtained otherwise.

Re: The Value of Things

#40

Let's cut through some of the noise here. We only talk about these things behause we fear becoming obsolete and losing our livelihoods. Using the scarf example - nobody's paying you to knit it. Knitting it probably won't put food on your table. Maybe for tribal humans that kind of thing did, hence the psychological reward wiring, but not now. Here's a reality: we do all become obsolete. It's called aging. I don't kno…

Wonderful comment.
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