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Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#371
post #369
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

> Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. I wish people would stop saying this. Our understanding of the brain is not sufficiently sophisticated to allow us to identify the "root cause" (whatever that means) of depression in most people. Indeed we have no reason to believe that there even is a root cause to most people's dep…

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A depressed person would tell that most people around him are wrong and are optimistic only because they don't understand how bad all is. Or because of a legitimate chemical imbalance or some other cognitive issue they can’t control alone. Right?

> " There is no convincing evidence that depression is caused by serotonin abnormalities " - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/2022... and > " the etiology of depression is incredibly complex, the narrative that it is caused by a simple “chemical imbalance” persists in lay settings. We sought to understand where people are exposed to this explanation " - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC…

I didn’t say it was simply that. You’re twisting my words and these studies to discount all of behavioral health.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#373
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

I suffer from severe crippling OCD and anxiety. Years of therapy and psychoanalysis have failed to find any cause, and, if anything, made it worse. The best explanation has been it's probably because I'm autistic, and these things tend to happen to autistics. Luckily, sertraline was an almost instant cure. I can come off it for periods, but it tends to reoccur after a while. So, it does mean I have to take a drug ind…

I'm not an expert so maybe someone else can clarify further, but in relation to sleep medications I've heard that they should not be used for more than two weeks, or they can permanently fuck up your sleep cycle.

They also give you low quality sleep, because they just knock you out. It's not a natural kind of sleep.

At least that's how it was a while ago. Maybe the situation has improved.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#374

Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. Pause for a moment and consider the mere plausibility of the claims in the first few paragraphs: The effect size for antidepressants is 0.4, but the effect size for Vitamin D is 1.8? Are we to believe that Vitamin D supplements have an effect s…

Hi, author of the blog post here! Thank you for writing in with your concerns. First:

> Please be very careful when someone tries to tell you that supplements are miraculous and pharmaceutical drugs don’t work at all.

I'll concede I unintentionally gave the tone that one should replace antidepressants with supplements, even though the conclusion specifically writes: "(Don't quit your existing antidepressants if they're net-positive for you!) you may also want to ask your doctor about Amitriptyline, or those other best-effect-size antidepressants."

I have now edited the intro to more explicitly say "you can take these supplements alongside traditional antidepressants! You can stack interventions!"

===

> and nobody noticed this massive discrepancy until now?

Researchers have noticed it for 13 years! From the linked Ghaemi et al 2024 meta-analysis ( https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11650176/ ):

> Several meta-analyses of epidemiological studies have suggested a positive relationship between vitamin D deficiency and risk of developing depression (Anglin et al., 2013; Ju, Lee, & Jeong, 2013).

> Although some review studies have presented suggestions of a beneficial effect of vitamin D supplementation on depressive symptoms (Anglin et al., 2013; Cheng, Huang, & Huang, 2020; Mikola et al., 2023; Shaffer et al., 2014; Xie et al., 2022), none of these reviews have examined the potential dose-dependent effects of vitamin D supplementation on depressive symptoms to determine the optimum dose of intervention. Some of the available reviews, owing to the limited number of trials and methodological biases, were of low quality (Anglin et al., 2013; Cheng et al., 2020; Li et al., 2014; Shaffer et al., 2014). Considering these uncertainties, we aimed to fill this gap by conducting a systematic review and dose–response meta-analysis of randomized control trials (RCTs) to determine the optimum dose and shape of the effects of vitamin D supplementation on depression and anxiety symptoms in adults regardless of their health status.

===

> even common OTC pain meds can have effect sizes lower than 0.4 depending on the study. Have you ever taken Tylenol or Ibuprofen and had a headache or other pain reduced? Well you’ve experience what a drug with a small effect size on paper can do for you.

I must push back: that's an effect of 0.4 plus placebo effect and time.

There's now RCTs of open-label placebos (where subjects are told it's placebo), which show even open-label placebos are still powerful for pain management. So, I stand by 0.4 being a small effect; even if you took a placebo you know to be placebo, you'd feel a noticeable reduction in pain/headache.

EDIT: Here's a systematic review of Open-Label Placebos, published in Nature in 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83148-6.pdf

> We found a significant overall effect (standardized mean difference = 0.72, 95% Cl 0.39–1.05, p In other words, if the effect on antidepressants vs placebo is ~0.4, and the effect of a placebo vs no placebo (just time) is ~0.7, that means the majority of the effect of antidepressants & OTC pain meds is due to placebo.

(I don't mean this in an insulting way; the fact that placebo alone has a "large" effect is a big deal, still under-valued, and means something important for how mood/cognition can directly impact physical health!)

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. But sometimes there is no "root cause", the brain is still a mystery. If you had been depressed even when you knew there was nothing to worry about, you would see it differently, because then you deduce that the black cloud is produced within. Chemistry trumps psychology. Good enough chemistry enables cognitive treatments. But to fix the wrong chemistry you need chemistry.

The parent commenter describes seasonal Winter depression. If the problem was brain chemistry, wouldn't it be with them from birth until treatment? Who has Seasonal Type 1 Diabetes, or Seasonal Dwarfism, or Seasonal Missing-an-Eye-From-Birth? Depression generally isn't something children have from birth, it's something adults get temporarily. A few HN submissions recently are in the style " thinking about doing the t…

> If the problem was brain chemistry, wouldn't it be with them from birth until treatment

Ha, of course it can be! Our brain chemistry is not stable through our life! Many children are born with epilepsy, but some people develop it later in life. epilepsy, like all neurological disorders are nature AND nurture, genes AND the environment.

Using your roller coaster analogy, there very well may be genes that control; how much fear someone experiences when riding a roller coaster. The problem society has is telling people that they all should be able to not have feear riding a roller coaster and if youa re too afraid to ride a roller coaster you should take xanax.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you view a world at a certain angle there is always something to worry about: 1. World in not perfect, it doesn't confirm to how we want it to be (and could not even in theory given that different people want it to be different) 2. The future cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy so even if all is perfect today you can worry that it will turn bad in the future. When looking at the same reality one persons sees th…

That's incredibly reductive. I'm sure some people's depression can boil down to a matter of perspective, but it's naive to extrapolate that to everyone with depression. I'm incredibly optimistic and am content with my position in life. My default state is being mindful of the present and I don't think about things too far into the future. I very rarely ever feel stressed out over things in life. However, none of that…

> I feel completely empty and find no joy in things.

Maybe the idea that we should find joy and feel full is wrong?

We are on a random planet circling a random star in an unfathomable Universe.

STOP looking for meaning and you are liberated. The quest for meaning by itself might be exhausting and makes you feel depressed.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#377

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

Hi, author of the blog post here! Thank you for sharing your experience with antidepressants, I'm really glad it worked for you & made your life better. I did mention the following at the end of the "antidepressants" section, but reading your comment convinced me to move it further up. The intro now reads: > The "standardised effect size" of antidepressants on depression, vs placebo, is around 0.4. (On average; some…

My personerino let me be ridiculous and fawn a bit, and tell you that you're one of my internet heroes.

Don't take it as criticism, more of a personal take on figuring out what antidepressants do for me. Furthermore, since posting that parent comment I've converted my vit. D dose to IUs and I realised i'm only taking 800 IUs daily. So a thank you for clueing me in on that, and who knows what happens if I up that. Maybe you were right all along and all i DID need was a heroic dose of vitamin D. (... thats what she said)

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#378

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

The things that keep me away from SSRIs are the potential for addiction and not being able to take psychedelics.

I had a friend on SSRIs not tell us they were on them when they hit a DMT vape pen at a party years ago and they got serotonin syndrome. Had I known I would have warned them not to.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#379
I am taking so much Vitamin D and I can confirm!

It is depressing ... :(

(Note: my own real therapy is to do what is fun. That is, humour. This can occur via social interaction; it can also happen to some extent by studying human behaviour via ... youtube videos! There are some surstromming videos that are just epic display of human behaviour. If aliens ever arrive here, I'll show them the Top 3 videos there. Either they will laugh too - or flee from this strange planet.)

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#380
post #368

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

Re "citalopram" and "SSRI lottery I guess"...in fact, citalopram is not a true SSRI and in fact no SSRI is only an SSRI as they also on, at increasing doses, many other neurotransmitters like norepinephprine and Muscarinic acetylcholine receptors. However, citalopram specifically has a big effect on the histaminegma the sigma-1 receptor. I will focus on the sigma-1 receptor: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/arti…

have u ever tried niacin?
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