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Android’s desktop interface leaks

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Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#21

Post by flohofwoe »

pjmlp wrote: post #18
direwolf20 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

Tbh, why bother?

kernel32+user32+gdi32+d3d[11|12]+dxgi is a pretty great API abstraction for game development. And unlike Linux desktop APIs the Win32 APIs are actually stable, so those games will also work in 5 years, and most importantly, performance is the same or better than on Windows. It's unlikely that game devs directly targeting Vulkan would do any better, and when using a high level engine, any layering overhead in Proton is negligible anyway. And don't even get me started about the state of audio APIs on Linux ;)

Also don't underestimate the amount of workarounds and tweaks that (most likely) go into Proton for games that make poor system API use. Without Proton those game-specific hacks would need to go into MESA, Wayland, X11 or various system audio libraries. At least Proton is one central place to accumulate all the game-specific warts in some dusty corner of their code base.

TL;DR: just think of Proton as an extremely low level and slim cross-platform API for games (not all that different than SDL), and suddenly it makes a lot of sense. And I bet that in 5..10 years Windows will have regressed so much that it might actually be better to run games through a Proton-like shim even on Windows (assuming Windows hasn't become 'yet another Linux distro' by then anyway) ;)

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#23

Post by anonymous908213 »

pjmlp wrote: post #18
direwolf20 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

I'm not sure how they could have failed that if that was never their goal in the first place. The entire point of Proton is that the Win32 API is infinitely more stable and worthwhile to target than anything Linux distros offer, and that the financial incentives aren't there for developers to 5x their platform distribution effort to reach 1% more users. An approach that relies on developers doing that would never work, and fortunately for Valve that isn't their approach.

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#25

Post by LorenDB »

Loughla wrote: post #17
torben-friis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux seems to be gaining a lot of traction, both with the fall of windows and gaming being more than feasible. It makes sense for the tech savvy option to succeed, now that personal computing is disappearing. Average folks won’t use a windows/macbook, they’ll use phones and tablets. My only concern is ending in a macOS+asahi situation where supporting a single device requires mountains of effort.

The fall of windows and Linux gaining traction. I've seen that written on here, Reddit, /., digg, hell even on usenet back in the day. . . .

And yet it's undeniable that 2025 had some of the biggest Linux hype in recent times:

- Windows 10 went EOL and triggered a wave of people moving to Linux to escape Windows 11 - DHH's adventures in Linux inspired a lot of people (including some popular coding streamers/YouTubers) to try Linux - Pewdiepie made multiple videos about switching to Linux and selfhosting - Bazzite reported serving 1 PB of downloads in one month - Zorin reported 1M downloads of ZorinOS 18 in one month and crossed the 2M threshold in under 3 months - I personally recall seeing a number of articles from various media outlets of writers trying Linux and being pretty impressed with how good it was - And don't forget Valve announced the Steam Machine and Steam Frame, which will both run Linux and have a ton of hype around them

In fact, I think that we will look back in 5 or 10 years and point at 2025 as the turning point for Linux on the desktop.

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#26

Post by fooqux »

anonymous908213 wrote: post #23
pjmlp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

I'm not sure how they could have failed that if that was never their goal in the first place. The entire point of Proton is that the Win32 API is infinitely more stable and worthwhile to target than anything Linux distros offer, and that the financial incentives aren't there for developers to 5x their platform distribution effort to reach 1% more users. An approach that relies on developers doing that would never wor…

You're thinking of now. Proton didn't exist yet the first time they tried Steam OS.

To be fair to Valve though, back then, there was a lot of movement in direct ports for Linux games. Humble Bundle (before they were bought) was spending real money on it and companies like Feral sprang up to help with titles like Mordor. It looked like there was going to be some real change.

But for various reasons the momentum waned. One of those reasons might be the existence of Proton itself. Some people were very against it because they thought it might lead to less native ports.

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#28

Post by flohofwoe »

pjmlp wrote: post #19
torben-friis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux seems to be gaining a lot of traction, both with the fall of windows and gaming being more than feasible. It makes sense for the tech savvy option to succeed, now that personal computing is disappearing. Average folks won’t use a windows/macbook, they’ll use phones and tablets. My only concern is ending in a macOS+asahi situation where supporting a single device requires mountains of effort.

The cycling speech since Window XP Toy's R US L&F days, unfortunely. Less fragmentation, more focus, OEM support on devices selling on regular stores is needed, otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme.

> otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme

What's different in the last decade is that Windows is on an undeniable quality downward spiral, it's simply not important anymore for Microsoft.

E.g. desktop Linux doesn't even need to improve, it just needs to wait for Windows to become worse ;)

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#29

Post by palata »

pjmlp wrote: post #18
direwolf20 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

> As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

Maybe not, but they fully solved my problem with games, which was that I could not play on Linux. I started playing again just because of the SteamDeck, I think it's a pretty big achievement :-).

Re: Android’s desktop interface leaks

#30

Post by LtWorf »

flohofwoe wrote: post #21
pjmlp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS. As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

Tbh, why bother? kernel32+user32+gdi32+d3d[11|12]+dxgi is a pretty great API abstraction for game development. And unlike Linux desktop APIs the Win32 APIs are actually stable, so those games will also work in 5 years, and most importantly, performance is the same or better than on Windows. It's unlikely that game devs directly targeting Vulkan would do any better, and when using a high level engine, any layering ove…

Try running a directx 5 game and let me know how it goes.
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