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U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

science.org

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Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#171

Post by dmix »

> Science’s analysis found that reductions in force, or RIFs, accounted for relatively few departures in 2025. Only at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, where 16% of the 519 STEM Ph.D.s who left last year got pink RIF slips, did the percentage exceed 6%, and some agencies reported no STEM Ph.D. RIFs in 2025.

> At most agencies, the most common reasons for departures were retirements and quitting. Although OPM classifies many of these as voluntary, outside forces including the fear of being fired, the lure of buyout offers, or a profound disagreement with Trump policies, likely influenced many decisions to leave.

So similar to most of the other federal agency reductions, around 5-10% were formally let go but the majority left voluntarily.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#172

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #22

The implicit assumption that this is a bad thing is grounded in the assumption that anyone who is a STEM PhD is automatically someone the US government should want to employ, which I don't think is true. Academia is a badly broken system, and many people with formal credentials like PhDs have wasted huge amounts of time and effort on producing what is ultimately low-quality scientific work. This is a pretty uncontrov…

Most PhDs don't move the needle because the point of a PhD is to learn how to do research, not to produce ground-breakingly original work that reinvents the entire scientific order.

That's orthogonal to domain expertise and general ability.

If you can survive a PhD there's an adequate chance you know more about your subject than an undergrad and are more capable of focused independent work.

That's what employers are buying. Which is why STEM PhDs still get more attention from the private sector than generic mass-produced undergrads.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#173

Post by mjuarez »

retired wrote: post #123
ixtli wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear you got priced out :( Unfortunately i am also quite pessimistic about the future of europe and the us, too.

The Netherlands is taking action against the brain drain by rapidly importing highly skilled migrants through various tax lowering schemes in the first five years of living here. However plenty of those people leave after that period. Especially with the upcoming 36% unrealized capital gains tax on all your savings and investments. Feels a bit like ISPs giving discounts to new customers only.

This is misleading. It's actually taxing 36% of _assumed gains_ of say 5% on all assets. So if you have $1M in savings, you'll end up paying 1.8% or $18K/annum, regardless of the actual investment return. I can see it would be painful during down years, but most of the time it would be ok.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#174

Post by layer8 »

roughly wrote: post #118
JuniperMesos wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is famous for low-quality research and bad papers, which is exactly what you'd expect from a system that grants an expanded number of formal credentials to people who aren't actually doing good scientific research.

China was famous for low-quality products as well.

While there have been substantial improvements, it still deserves its fame.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#175

Post by BurningFrog »

imglorp wrote: post #58
JuniperMesos wrote: post #22

The implicit assumption that this is a bad thing is grounded in the assumption that anyone who is a STEM PhD is automatically someone the US government should want to employ, which I don't think is true. Academia is a badly broken system, and many people with formal credentials like PhDs have wasted huge amounts of time and effort on producing what is ultimately low-quality scientific work. This is a pretty uncontrov…

Can we agree academia is the worst system, except for all the others? In the last century, the US led so many tech fields because of both academic and corporate research and the people to do it. Let's fix that system if needed and keep it well stocked. The alternative is ignorance, leading to unskilled industries and an easily misled electorate.

Academia critics usually think it was pretty great until the last 3-5 decades.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#176

Post by checker659 »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #99
ixtli wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're saying that this is a step in the direction of "fixing" academia. I don't see any evidence of that, all i see is fewer scientists receiving decreasing funding in a state where weve already been slashing basic research investment for generations. Also, there is no evidence that the ones that are leaving are the least productive. Intuitively it's likely the opposite: the ones who have the most pot…

I'm not claiming that this is a step in the direction of fixing academia; I'm claiming that, because academia is currently broken, we shouldn't assume that the ~10k people who got PhDs under the current system are people doing actually-valuable work for the federal government and ultimately the American people.

Would you have said the same for folks doing NLP circa 2015?

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#177

Post by retired »

copperx wrote: post #107
retired wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a PhD, just an engineer and I moved out of The Netherlands. It was no longer economical feasible to live there. I am very pessimistic about the future Western Europe. Right now it offers the one of the best QoL in the world for the average worker but who knows for how long. With the current brain and wealth drain there will no longer be enough people to support the social system.

But why did you left if you had a great QoL?

Because I was able to get a better QoL elsewhere in the EU.

The average worker in The Netherlands has one of the best QoL compared to average workers in other countries. But the Dutch income leveling and benefit system makes it so a high earner doesn’t have a significantly better QoL. Someone earning €30k has roughly the same spending power as someone earning €50k. (edit: net income after tax and benefits is €42k versus €47k for those two incomes but the person earning €30k has access to cheaper government housing)

In other countries, earning more gives you a better QoL.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#178

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

throwaway2056 wrote: post #156
JuniperMesos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not claiming that this is a step in the direction of fixing academia; I'm claiming that, because academia is currently broken, we shouldn't assume that the ~10k people who got PhDs under the current system are people doing actually-valuable work for the federal government and ultimately the American people.

> 'm not claiming that this is a step in the direction of fixing academia; I'm claiming that, because academia is currently broken, we shouldn't assume that the Why? If you go that far then - senate - scotus - violence - SV - tech bros - lies about AI What is not broken. The idea of academia is it is an investment. Look at internet, DoE, Genome, vaccines - a lot from academia. Companies barely do that.

Indeed. You're far more likely to get sensible policy opinions from a STEM PhD who knows what science is than from sleazy opportunist politicians, investors, and PR people.

You might even say that the opportunists dislike STEM because it gets in the way of their opportunism.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#180

Post by noncoml »

TacoCommander wrote: post #17
thatfrenchguy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, so that we can loose our innovation edge and loose the next Apple, Google or Nvidia. Amazing plan.

A simple house in the South Bay is $2 million or more. Is this a win for humanity?

Is your complaint that you cannot afford to live in a place where intelligent, well educated people are getting payed insane amount of money?

And are you implying that the solution is to stop those highly desirable people from coming in because that will help you afford a place in South Bay?

In other words since you cannot compete with them, outlaw them?

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