A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit • Hacker News Board

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#31

Post by Evbn » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #25

ebiester wrote: post #6

What I don't understand is how the Jitney hasn't been allowed by regulation in the US -- they're incredibly convenient, and a fleet of minivans from the key districts to various park n' ride locations would make a ton of sense.

Taxi companies are required to service the whole city. If you allowed jitney service without that requirement in popular areas, the taxi services couldn't compete.

This seems easy fixable by subsidizing fares to unpopular areas, financed by a tax in fares in popular areas.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#32

Post by cpeterso » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 7:47 PM UTC

johnrgrace wrote: post #20

rickyconnolly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.

I think Detroit could have an economic revival if they just took a portion of the city build walls around it and made it an anything goes zone where you can do whatever you want. But why would you hire armed guards when you can hire off duty police officers who will wear their uniforms while they work for you? Yes, you can do this legally! Also the local police, as part of a labor action, are now WARNING people Atten…

Escape From Detroit?

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#33

Post by rayiner » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 7:48 PM UTC

Evbn wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no practical distinction.

Of course there is. Taliban, Hezbollah, Mafia, etc originate as nongovernmental entities enforcing order.

I suppose it depends on how you define "lack of order." Nature abhors a vacuum. When there is no government imposed order the "lack of order" is the ascendency of entities like the Taliban, Somalian warlords, etc. To me this a "lack of order."

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#34

Post by steiza » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #7

rickyconnolly wrote: post #5

As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy.

Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy".

In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there are also many roads that don't get salted and plowed, and long waits for ambulances - do those people also live in anarchy?

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#35

Post by jlgreco » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 8:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #22

akgerber wrote: post #18

This is a party bus service to allow bar hopping in a car-dependent city when passengers are too intoxicated to drive. It only runs on Friday & Saturday nights between a couple of suburban bars & the downtown & university district of Detroit. It might well be a good business (and certainly better than drunk driving), but it's not a meaningful substitute for functional mass transit. Public transit systems require subs…

Onerous ride regulations are usually the flip side of requiring cab companies to service everyone.

In reality we usually get the worse of both worlds. There has been some progress in eliminating discrimination (Uber's system in particular resists driver discrimination), but it is still rampant.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#36

Post by jlgreco » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 8:46 PM UTC

steiza wrote: post #34

sneak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy. Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy". In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there a…

If you have a city that gets comparable service as relatively remote rural areas, then yeah, it pretty much is an anarchy.

The only thing that you can fairly compare a city to is other cities. As far as cities in America goes, I think it is fair to say that many attributes of Detroit are very reminiscent of an anarchy. There may be better examples, but Detroit stands out for its former prominence.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#37

Post by jlgreco » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

Evbn wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no practical distinction.

Of course there is. Taliban, Hezbollah, Mafia, etc originate as nongovernmental entities enforcing order.

How do you define "nongovernmental"? I think an argument could be made that each of those are/where governments, although perhaps a little alien seeming to us.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#38

Post by wildgift » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 8:59 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #7

rickyconnolly wrote: post #5

As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban cente…

Detroit was built up by the auto business, and as the business has become more international, has shrunken as different parts of the business have moved to other cities and other countries.

The sense of anarchy is a function of low-density caused by people moving away, leaving empty spaces and absentee landowners. Unfortunately, there's not any really easy way to force people to re-concentrate in areas, to create a new city, and satellite cities.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#39

Post by wildgift » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 9:03 PM UTC

mukaiji wrote: post #4

It's an interesting experiment. If it succeeds, it would be ironic that the solution to America's public transportation is coming from Detroit: after all, GM & co are the guys who bought America's trolleys in the 1950's and disassembled them to boost sales of cars. EDIT: related story on SF's private lines http://stamen.com/zero1/

Except in the rust belt cities, the situation in other cities isn't like in Detroit. The current problem is the movement of poor people to the suburbs and exurbs. This is caused by middle class people moving into the cities.

Re: A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

#40

Post by jivatmanx » Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

Evbn wrote: post #30

rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no practical distinction.

Of course there is. Taliban, Hezbollah, Mafia, etc originate as nongovernmental entities enforcing order.

The Taliban was a government, and functions as a government in the areas in controls.

Hezbollah has pratically all of the characteristics of a government in the area of Lebanon it controls. Also, it's also the most powerful political party in Lebanon.