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After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

atmoio.substack.com

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Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#121
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My way is to understand my own codebase and look at the output of the LLM. Then you are not vibe coding. The core, almost exclusive requirement for "vibe coding" is that you DON'T look at the code. Only the product outcome.

This seems to be a major source of confusion in these conversations. People do not seem to agree on the definition of vibe coding. A lot of debates seem to be between people who are using the term because it sounds cool and people who have defined it specifically to only include irresponsible tool use, then they get into a debate about if the person was being irresponsible or not. It’s not useful to have that debate…

The original use of the word "vibe code" was very clear.

You don't even look at the diffs. You just yolo the code.

https://x.com/i/status/1886192184808149383

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#122
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't particularily care if people can write code like they work at the assembly line. I care [...] That they can deliver business value quickly. In my experience, people who talk about business value expect people to code like they work at the assembly line. Churn out features, no disturbances, no worrying about code quality, abstractions, bla bla. To me, your comment reads contradictory. You want initiative, an…

I think we very often confuse engineers with scientists in this field. Think of the old joke: “anyone can build a bridge, it takes an Engineer to build one that barely stands”. Business value and the goal of engineering is to make a bridge that is fast to build, cheap to make, and stays standing exactly as long as it needs to. This is very different from the goals of science which are to test the absolute limits of k…

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Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#123
post #74

Karpathy coined the term vibecoding 11 months ago ( https://x.com/karpathy/status/1886192184808149383 ). It caused quite a stir - because not only was it was a radically new concept, but fully agentic coding had only become recently possible. You've been vibe coding for two years ??

I had GPT-4 design and build a GPT-4 powered Python programmer in 2023. It was capable of self-modification and built itself out after the bootstrapping phase (where I copy pasted chunks or code based on GPT-4's instructions).

It wasn't fully autonomous (the reliability was a bit low -- e.g. had to get the code out of code fences programmatically), and it wasn't fully original (I stole most of it from Auto-GPT, except that I was operating on the AST directly due to the token limitations).

My key insight here was that I allowed GPT to design the apis that itself was going to use. This makes perfect sense to me based on how LLMs work. You tell it to reach for a function that doesn't exist, and then you ask it to make it exist based on how it reached for it. Then the design matches its expectations perfectly.

GPT-4 now considers self modifying AI code to be extremely dangerous and doesn't like talking about it. Claude's safety filters began shutting down similar conversations a few months ago, suggesting the user switch to a dumber model.

It seems the last generation or two of models passed some threshold regarding self replication (which is a distinct but highly related concept), and the labs got spooked. I haven't heard anything about this in public though.

Edit: It occurs to me now that "self modification and replication" is a much more meaningful (and measurable) benchmark for artificial life than consciousness is...

BTW for reference the thing that spooked Claude's safety trigger was "Did PKD know about living information systems?"

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#124
I read that people just allow Claude Code free rein but after using it for a few months and seeing what it does I wonder how much of that is in front of users. CC is incredible as much as it is frustrating and a lot of what it churns out is utter rubbish.

I also keep seeing that writing more detailed specs is the answer and retorts from those saying we’re back to waterfall.

That isn’t true. I think more of the iteration has moved to the spec. Writing the code is so quick now so can make spec changes you wouldn’t dare before.

You also need gates like tests and you need very regular commits.

I’m gradually moving towards more detailed specs in the form of use cases and scenarios along with solid tests and a constantly tuned agent file + guidelines.

Through this I’m slowly moving back to letting Claude lose on implementation knowing I can do scan of the git diffs versus dealing with a thousand ask before edits and slowing things down.

When this works you start to see the magic.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#125

My observation is that vibe-coded applications are significantly lower quality than traditional software. Anthropic software (which they claim to be 90% vibe coded) is extremely buggy, especially the UI.

That's a misunderstanding based on loose definition of "vibe coding". When companies threw around the "90% of code is written by AI" claims, they were referring to counting characers of autocomplete basing on users actually typing code (most of which was eequivalent to "AI generated" code by Eclipse tab-completion decade ago), and sometimes writing hyperlocal prompts for a single method.

We can identify 3 levels of "vibe coding":

1. GenAI Autocomplete

2. Hyperlocal prompting about a specific function. (Copilot's orginal pitch)

3. Developing the app without looking at code.

Level 3 is hardly considered "vibe" coding, and Level 2 is iffy.

"90% of code written by AI" in some non-trivial contexts only very recently reached level 3.

I don't think it ever reached Level 2, because that's just a painfully tedious way of writing code.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but the goal of school is to lift heavy things, basically. You're trying to do things that are difficult (for you) but don't produce anything useful for anyone else. That's how you gain the ability to do useful things.

Even after school, you need to lift weights once in a while or you lose your ability. I wouldn't want to write raw bytes like Mel did though. Eventually some things are not worth getting good at.

Let's just accept that this weight lifting metaphor is leaky, like any other, and brings us to absurds like forklift operators need to lift dumbbells to keep relevant in their jobs.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#127
After reading the article (and watching the video), I think the author makes very clear points that comments here are skipping over.

The opener is 100% true. Our current approach with AI code is "draft a design in 15mins" and have AI implement it. The contrasts with the thoughtful approach a human would take with other human engineers. Plan something, pitch the design, get some feedback, take some time thinking through pros and cons. Begin implementing, pivot, realizations, improvements, design morphs.

The current vibe coding methodology is so eager to fire and forget and is passing incomplete knowledge unto an AI model with limited context, awareness and 1% of your mental model and intent at the moment you wrote the quick spec.

This is clearly not a recipe for reliable and resilient long-lasting code or even efficient code. Spec-driven development doesn't work when the spec is frozen and the builder cannot renegotiate intent mid-flight..

The second point made clearer in the video is the kind of learned patterns that can delude a coder, who is effectively 'doing the hard part', into thinking that the AI is the smart one. Or into thinking that the AI is more capable than it actually is.

I say this as someone who uses Claude Code and Codex daily. The claims of the article (and video) aren't strawman.

Can we progress past them? Perhaps, if we find ways to have agents iteratively improve designs on the fly rather than sticking with the original spec that, let's be honest, wasn't given the rigor relative to what we've asked the LLMs to accomplish. If our workflows somehow make the spec a living artifact again -- then agents can continuously re-check assumptions, surface tradeoffs, and refactor toward coherence instead of clinging to the first draft.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#129
post #74

Karpathy coined the term vibecoding 11 months ago ( https://x.com/karpathy/status/1886192184808149383 ). It caused quite a stir - because not only was it was a radically new concept, but fully agentic coding had only become recently possible. You've been vibe coding for two years ??

The author is using the term to mean AI assisted coding. Thats been around for longer than the word vibe coding

This remains a point of great confusion every time there is such a discussion.

When some people say vibe coding, they mean they're copy-pasting snippets of code from ChatGPT.

When some people say vibe coding, they give a one sentence prompt to their cluster of Claude Code instances and leave for a road trip!

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#130
I think what many people do no understand is that software development is communication. Communication from the customers/stake holders to the developer and communication from with the developer to the machine. At some fundamental level there needs to be some precision about what you want and someone/something needs to translate that into a system to provide that solution. Software can help check if there are errors, check constraints, and execute instructions precisely, but they cannot replace the fact that someone needs to tell the machine what to do (precise intent).

What AI (LLMs) do is raises the level of abstraction to human language via translation. The problem is human language is imprecise in general. You can see this with legal or science writing. Legalese is almost illegible to laypeople because there are precise things you need to specify and you need be precise in how you specify it. Unfortunately the tech community is misleading the public and telling laypeople they can just sit back and casually tell AI what you want and it is going to give you exactly what you wanted. Users are just lying to themself, because most-likely they did not take the time to think through what they wanted and they are rationalizing (after the fact) that the AI is giving them exactly what they wanted.

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