Live data from Hacker News

The Equity Equation

paulgraham.com

141–150 of 160 posts

Re: The Equity Equation

#141
ok, so we're a new c-corporation out of north carolina, three new unc mba graduates with a fourth ruby coder out in pasadena. we have a hotmail-sized concept with a working prototype already built. it's addictive, the kids are going to love it (parents too). all we want to do is hire ourselves and knock the project into beta. we also know that if we launch and gain x users right out of the gate, we will be able to get a better deal from investors.

questions = what is x? how many users does a hot new web 2.0 service need before jaded vc's start paying attention? what are the other eye openers in your opinion? until i read this article, i had been of the point of view that you should turn down all investment until you launch if at all possible. is that correct or am i wrong?

- Srini

Re: The Equity Equation

#142
post #5

Nice article, but drastically oversimplified. Paul ignores two critical issues: Risk, and non-linear utility-of-money functions. These two factors become critical when there is a tradeoff between probability of success and the payoff of success. Suppose, as a simple example, that I have a startup which I think has a 50% chance of succeeding and being sold for $1M, and a 50% chance of failing and being worthless. Now…

Entrepreneurs face some pretty tough questions at a very early stage. Should I take Angel or VC money? How much money should I raise? How much equity should I give up? How much equity should I grant to early employees?

The math equation is correct, but the likely outcomes are nearly impossible to estimate. I have been on the management team of 5 startups and advised many others. There are some "norms" and guidelines for how much to raise at each stage, how much equity to give up, and even how much stock to grant employees as you grow the company.

I wrote an in depth blog on these questions, too long to detail here, but Paul is on the right track. For more details see How much Equity for Investors and Employees?

http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/08/how-m...

Re: The Equity Equation

#143
at a high-level i agree with the post, however practically speaking, you're overlooking several significant issues: 1) diff between preferred vs common shares 2) liquidation preferences in terms sheets 3) supply/demand for investor capital in the market 4) competitive position of VC/company in the market 5) exit targets / preferences / restrictions by investors / entrepreneurs

these 5 factors (& many others) have DRAMATIC impact on the 1/(1-n) calculation you mention. while i don't disagree with you in theory, practically applied the outcomes matter a fuckload.

see leo dirac's presentation on term sheet liquidation preferences for just one perspective on this: http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/08/vc-term-sheets-.html - dave mcclure http://500hats.typepad.com/

Re: The Equity Equation

#146
I am thoroughly fed-up hearing this self-serving tripe from investors.

If all I am looking for is financial independence (say $3M), why would I trade an 80% probability of success for a 5% probability of achieving 100 times that by selling out to VCs?

Sure, my expected return is 6 times greater, but now I need approximately 31 (=log 0.2 / log 0.95) bites at the cherry to guarantee an 80% probability [1] of success. That's 6 lifetimes of startups for a serious serial entrepreneur (most of us have energy for one, maybe two, startups).

Unlike VCs, who invest in a portfolio of companies, I don't have a portfolio of lives.

[1] This assumes only two outcomes from a VC-backed company: zero return or $300M exit. Obviously there are a range of returns, but this is a reasonable approximation since VCs have no interest in seeing low returns - they'd rather kill the company than waste their time.

Re: The Equity Equation

#147

I am thoroughly fed-up hearing this self-serving tripe from investors. If all I am looking for is financial independence (say $3M), why would I trade an 80% probability of success for a 5% probability of achieving 100 times that by selling out to VCs? Sure, my expected return is 6 times greater, but now I need approximately 31 (=log 0.2 / log 0.95) bites at the cherry to guarantee an 80% probability [1] of success. T…

And I am thoroughly fed up with people who jump to conclusions after misunderstanding something I've written, and post comments using language they'd never use talking to someone in person. (At least, language I hope they'd never use.)

This is covered in other essays, e.g. http://www.paulgraham.com/guidetoinvestors.html

Re: The Equity Equation

#148
post #147

I am thoroughly fed-up hearing this self-serving tripe from investors. If all I am looking for is financial independence (say $3M), why would I trade an 80% probability of success for a 5% probability of achieving 100 times that by selling out to VCs? Sure, my expected return is 6 times greater, but now I need approximately 31 (=log 0.2 / log 0.95) bites at the cherry to guarantee an 80% probability [1] of success. T…

And I am thoroughly fed up with people who jump to conclusions after misunderstanding something I've written, and post comments using language they'd never use talking to someone in person. (At least, language I hope they'd never use.) This is covered in other essays, e.g. http://www.paulgraham.com/guidetoinvestors.html

I don't see how I have misunderstood you, eg:

"The reason Sequoia is such a good deal is that the percentage of the company they take is artificially low. They don't even try to get market price for their investment; they limit their holdings to leave the founders enough stock to feel the company is still theirs."

If Sequoia took ordinary stock for their money that argument would have some legs. But otherwise, it is self-serving (for the VCs). Once you take their money at valuation X, liquidation preferences and control clauses guarantee that you're not getting anything until the company is worth at least 10X. It doesn't matter whether the founders still have 95%, they've given up control over the outcome that matters to them.

Angels are a different story. I have angel investors myself, carefully chosen, and with a term sheet that is much fairer than anything you'll get from VCs (they can't screw me; I can't screw them).

I used to have some deference for VCs, but after hearing their self-serving arguments and witnessing their arrogance for years, I don't waste my time (being profitable also helps).

Don't get me wrong, we could grow faster with VC money, and I'd do it on the right terms. But these days, if a VC contacts me I always ask them within the first 2 minutes whether they'd invest on similar terms to the existing angels. The answer is always "no". They never have a good response to the obvious question: "how do your terms make sense for a founder?".

As for language, I apologise. I have not used the expression "self-serving tripe" in person with a VC, but I've been close. They need to hear it sometimes.

Re: The Equity Equation

#149
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I am thoroughly fed up with people who jump to conclusions after misunderstanding something I've written, and post comments using language they'd never use talking to someone in person. (At least, language I hope they'd never use.) This is covered in other essays, e.g. http://www.paulgraham.com/guidetoinvestors.html

I don't see how I have misunderstood you, eg: "The reason Sequoia is such a good deal is that the percentage of the company they take is artificially low. They don't even try to get market price for their investment; they limit their holdings to leave the founders enough stock to feel the company is still theirs." If Sequoia took ordinary stock for their money that argument would have some legs. But otherwise, it is…

What you misunderstood was that this article was simply about the math of trading equity, not higher level issues like one's personal goals, which I talk about elsewhere.

Incidentally, your specific claim that if you take VC money "you're not getting anything until the company is worth at least 10X" is false. Many VCs, including Sequoia, will let founders sell some of their stock on the way up for diversification. Such deals are usually kept quiet, but they're quite common.

Re: The Equity Equation

#150
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how I have misunderstood you, eg: "The reason Sequoia is such a good deal is that the percentage of the company they take is artificially low. They don't even try to get market price for their investment; they limit their holdings to leave the founders enough stock to feel the company is still theirs." If Sequoia took ordinary stock for their money that argument would have some legs. But otherwise, it is…

What you misunderstood was that this article was simply about the math of trading equity, not higher level issues like one's personal goals, which I talk about elsewhere. Incidentally, your specific claim that if you take VC money "you're not getting anything until the company is worth at least 10X" is false. Many VCs, including Sequoia, will let founders sell some of their stock on the way up for diversification. Su…

Trading equity only makes sense in terms of my goals. The founders own 90% of this company. We're not trading equity unless the math makes sense. If your math says it makes sense when it doesn't, your math is wrong (specifically, money has nonlinear utility for founders, but linear utility for VCs, or more specifically, for limited VC partners).

"Many VCs, including Sequoia, will let founders sell some of their stock on the way up"

How very generous of them. They may deign to "let" you sell some of your stock. Come hither dumb hacker, trade that unencumbered stock for paper you don't even have the right to sell. And just to prove how generous we are, we'll let you keep 70% of the paper no one is allowed to sell (of course, we reserve the right to do whatever we please with our 30%).

Be in no doubt that they 0wn your ass, regardless of the percentage of your company they have. Hence why discussion of equity percentages makes no sense unless we're comparing the same class of stock.

Post reply on HN